Mountain Bike Reviews Forum banner
1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
748 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Current tentative schedule looks like this: (tentative because I haven't registered yet)

July 29th - Wilderness 101
Aug 19th - Hampshire 100 (Crotched Mt. has taken it on for 2017 and the race continues with the ski resort being the new start/finish/camping area)
Sept 3rd - SM100

That gives me 3 weeks of recovery between W101 and H100, but only 2 weeks between H100 and SM100. Seems like all 3 of these hundos are on the epic scale for difficulty, and I plan to do them all on an SS Lynskey Pro 29SL with a 120mm travel SID XX. Recovery time is limited and my feeling is that this will be the biggest challenge off the bike. Is it possible for one to train yourself to recover faster? Second problem is, how likely will I want to turn my bike into wall art before Sept and how can I reduce that risk? (fitting it with a geared drive train or replacing it with a 120mm travel full suspension XC rig, while the obvious answers, aren't options for the sake of this discussion) Comfort at the contact points is very important and currently the bike is setup with an Ergon saddle, RDO 27.2 seat post, RDO bars and ESi chunky grips. I have some Ergon grips that I could use as well, though I haven't dialed them in yet.

Due to time limitations (wife, kids, work, house), the training program is going to center around shorter interval sessions on the rollers during the winter with alternating days of weight training. I'm shooting for more consistent training days with shorter, regular workouts vs. intermittent days where I put in a lot of volume in one shot as has been my "training" historically. Once the weather improves in the spring I'll hopefully be working up to ~4hr rides bi-weekly. I'm also converting my Crux to single speed for both use on the rollers and road riding. I feel like road and roller training with gears doesn't translate well to SS MTB and I can get the effort levels I'm shooting for on the rollers with this setup still by using a broad range of cadences.

Aside from "you're an idiot", are there any other items I should consider for a calendar like this? I've done hundos, (H100 a few times now, all on the SS) and I've done shorter endurance races with similar recovery time tables (50s and 6hr races, again all on the SS), but not both. I feel like recovery is going to be the biggest challenge, but maybe I'm wrong? Goals listed by priority are:

1. Finish all 3
2. Beat someone in class in each
3. Finish mid-pack or better in class in each

For an idea of where I'm at right now, I was a little over 2hrs behind Gordon at last year's H100.
 

·
LDC is ded,deth by trollz
Joined
·
2,147 Posts
Current tentative schedule looks like this: (tentative because I haven't registered yet)

July 29th - Wilderness 101
Aug 19th - Hampshire 100 (Crotched Mt. has taken it on for 2017 and the race continues with the ski resort being the new start/finish/camping area)
Sept 3rd - SM100

That gives me 3 weeks of recovery between W101 and H100, but only 2 weeks between H100 and SM100. Seems like all 3 of these hundos are on the epic scale for difficulty, and I plan to do them all on an SS Lynskey Pro 29SL with a 120mm travel SID XX. Recovery time is limited and my feeling is that this will be the biggest challenge off the bike. Is it possible for one to train yourself to recover faster? Second problem is, how likely will I want to turn my bike into wall art before Sept and how can I reduce that risk? (fitting it with a geared drive train or replacing it with a 120mm travel full suspension XC rig, while the obvious answers, aren't options for the sake of this discussion) Comfort at the contact points is very important and currently the bike is setup with an Ergon saddle, RDO 27.2 seat post, RDO bars and ESi chunky grips. I have some Ergon grips that I could use as well, though I haven't dialed them in yet.

Due to time limitations (wife, kids, work, house), the training program is going to center around shorter interval sessions on the rollers during the winter with alternating days of weight training. I'm shooting for more consistent training days with shorter, regular workouts vs. intermittent days where I put in a lot of volume in one shot as has been my "training" historically. Once the weather improves in the spring I'll hopefully be working up to ~4hr rides bi-weekly. I'm also converting my Crux to single speed for both use on the rollers and road riding. I feel like road and roller training with gears doesn't translate well to SS MTB and I can get the effort levels I'm shooting for on the rollers with this setup still by using a broad range of cadences.

Aside from "you're an idiot", are there any other items I should consider for a calendar like this? I've done hundos, (H100 a few times now, all on the SS) and I've done shorter endurance races with similar recovery time tables (50s and 6hr races, again all on the SS), but not both. I feel like recovery is going to be the biggest challenge, but maybe I'm wrong? Goals listed by priority are:

1. Finish all 3
2. Beat someone in class in each
3. Finish mid-pack or better in class in each

For an idea of where I'm at right now, I was a little over 2hrs behind Gordon at last year's H100.
I am planning 4 myself. Two in June and two in Sept. With them being close you can recover from the first one. Then get the legs moving again and do the next one. No training you do between them will make you faster but it could make you slower.

I am SS rider through and through. Did the SS on the trainer last winter. Waste of time. Gears this year. If you get the Coach LW SS plans you do most of your training on gears. Varying the cadence doesnt work. I can spin 160rpm for miles. Youre not making many watts. I spent all this year building my spin and lungs, the next step is training with gears so i can train in zones and keep the power on by shifting gears not cadence. You have lots of good ideas though just adding my thoughts. We will be racing each other in a few races so let me know how this is working for you as the winter moves on.

Taking your SS mtb to fast local road group ride once a week will help you show up to blow up. Riding your ss for road training that you want to translate to SS speed isnt the answer. You can build watts with gears and then use them on your SS. SS specific drills help. Id recommend you do much longer than 4hr rides on your long ones. 6-8 hrs. Then you can see how you recover and adjust. If you wait till after the race to see how you recover may affect the next race.

Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
748 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'm not following your comment about high cadence != watts. On rollers, if I increase my speed by 50%, my power output has to go up by 50% as well. True, I don't get the huge power output intervals, but my intervals are in the 2-3 minute range with a big enough gear to get me solidly at the upper end of my aerobic capacity. The 10-30 second long intervals are not hard to find once spring returns and I can get back outside.
 

·
LDC is ded,deth by trollz
Joined
·
2,147 Posts
I'm not following your comment about high cadence != watts. On rollers, if I increase my speed by 50%, my power output has to go up by 50% as well. True, I don't get the huge power output intervals, but my intervals are in the 2-3 minute range with a big enough gear to get me solidly at the upper end of my aerobic capacity. The 10-30 second long intervals are not hard to find once spring returns and I can get back outside.
I don't know all the lingo. Ill try.

Speed is not cadence. I said increasing your cadence doesnt mean youre increasing the power.

Take 34/17. It takes more power to spin it at 60rpm than 160 on flat ground. And if im wrong that means my ftp is about 475. Which i doubt. I can show you 5k miles of me riding my SS. The faster i spin at a certain point the power stops increasing. Heart rate, cadence, speed go up. Power goes down. The force on the pedals is less. If there is less force on the pedals you are creating that speed with cardio not power.

All but about ten of my rides ever on Strava are SS. You can see my cadence and estimated power. I can hit near 200rpm and hold around 185rpm for bursts and can hold 160rpm for miles. Cadence not hr. The faster i spin the easier it is to pedal. With gears you can keep shifting to stay in a zone pushing the pedals hard.

https://www.strava.com/athlete/training

This is a road group ride on my 26lb steel SS geared 38/17 on 2.2 fast trak tires. Strava estimates huge power cause they dont realize I was on a SS. I was there. I was using barely any watts.

https://www.strava.com/activities/671270052
Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
748 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If I'm riding SS on the rollers, the only way to increase speed is with a higher cadence. That said, apologies for mixing terminology there.

As power is a function of force over time (in this case time units is cadence rpm), doubling cadence while maintaining force doubles power. I agree that at 200rpm it is unlikely you can generate much force, but for my work I'm in the 80-120rpm range and can generate meaningful force. More resistance is gear inches away...
 

·
LDC is ded,deth by trollz
Joined
·
2,147 Posts
If I'm riding SS on the rollers, the only way to increase speed is with a higher cadence. That said, apologies for mixing terminology there.

As power is a function of force over time (in this case time units is cadence rpm), doubling cadence while maintaining force doubles power. I agree that at 200rpm it is unlikely you can generate much force, but for my work I'm in the 80-120rpm range and can generate meaningful force. More resistance is gear inches away...
Please let me make sure i say this so we can gain knowledge together.

I am Lane. Nice to meet you.
I am not the best at putting my thoughts into words.
I am not trying to be "combative"
I am trying to drive this conversation forward productively because we have the exact same questions and methods.
I am trying to beat Gordon.
I am willing to share any info.
I ride off feel. Started August 2015.
I have used Coach LW SS plans.
Im 34 6'2 170.
I live in Detroit (below sea level).
Ive ridden exclusively SS mtb and used the ss on the trainer during a computrainer class last winter.

I listed all that stuff because i want us to be on the same page not two random people giving opinions. Now you can take what i say a little clearer i hope.


I wasnt correcting your terminology i was just saying increasing your cadence increases your speed but its not that simple.

Like you said more resistance is gear inches away. Its also a click away. You need the crux geared and the SS on the trainer.

Youre saying you can spin x rpm in y gear and get your interval. Well what im saying is with gears you can use more resistance at the same rpm and lower heart rate.

I ride and race around 65-67 gear inches. I can spin that up to 200 rpm in a race. However my heart goes up with it. My speed, my cadence, my heart rate all go up. My watts drop off quickly after about 130 rpm. Then im using oxygen not watts.

To get faster you need more watts. That means pushing a big gear. 80-120 rpm is a huge change in watts on the pedal. Thats going to be a big change in heart rate. Youre going to raise your heart rate but the watts arent going to increase realtive the exertion.

Ive spoke to Coach Lynda about all this. Her plans for SS you actually ride gears for power work, use the SS for drills and technique and skills and racing.

For example. A 30 min standing drill. Using gears or SS you put it in a gear and ride standing up for 30 min keeping the RPM between 50-60. Well when you first start out you choose a gear for your ss, go out and after 8 mins of the 30 you are dropping below the target rpm cause you are getting fatigued or you are having trouble not spinning out. Its all a waste of time. Ride the crux with gears. Ride the SS also doing cardio drills and standing drills etc. Dont limit yourself to just SS training.

Also on your long 6 hour zone 2 rides youll either need a gear that is so easy to pedal you max at 8mph or you need to do a ton of walking everytime your heart goes up. If you put a big gear and push it slow so your heart doesnt go up you are not staying in 80-120. If you put a small gear and spin it 80-120 you wont be staying in zone 2. Thats why the geared bike is the key.


Its a lot of rambling. Hope you see my opinion. I have no scientific data other than my actual experience. Hopefully others can help too. I am starting training on the 5th we will see if i see a big difference than last year all SS all the time.

Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk
 

·
LDC is ded,deth by trollz
Joined
·
2,147 Posts
If I'm riding SS on the rollers, the only way to increase speed is with a higher cadence. That said, apologies for mixing terminology there.

As power is a function of force over time (in this case time units is cadence rpm), doubling cadence while maintaining force doubles power. I agree that at 200rpm it is unlikely you can generate much force, but for my work I'm in the 80-120rpm range and can generate meaningful force. More resistance is gear inches away...
Had a thought.

Are you saying if im pedaling a gear. Lets say 2/1 to keep it simple. If im am pedaling at 60 rpm making x power and then start pedaling 120 rpm im making double the power? Scientifically? Like thats not user dependent thats a universal formula? Thank you

Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
748 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Had a thought.

Are you saying if im pedaling a gear. Lets say 2/1 to keep it simple. If im am pedaling at 60 rpm making x power and then start pedaling 120 rpm im making double the power? Scientifically? Like thats not user dependent thats a universal formula? Thank you

Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk
Yep, universal truth though a key bit is missing in your summary. The force on the pedal at the higher cadence must be the same as it was with the lower cadence. This gets more difficult as cadence increases due to the reduced time for big muscles to fire. There are also some system losses that will increase at the higher cadence so you won't see exactly double, but close enough for theoretical discussion.

I have some other feedback but I'll have to post again later as I don't have enough time right now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Had a thought.

Are you saying if im pedaling a gear. Lets say 2/1 to keep it simple. If im am pedaling at 60 rpm making x power and then start pedaling 120 rpm im making double the power? Scientifically? Like thats not user dependent thats a universal formula? Thank you

Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk
Read Joe Friel's Power Meter Handbook. He explains in detail how increasing cadence does increase power. Also, watch how Chris Froome drops competitors on climbs by spinning up fast cadences. Perfect case study in how cadence affects power.
 

·
LDC is ded,deth by trollz
Joined
·
2,147 Posts
Read Joe Friel's Power Meter Handbook. He explains in detail how increasing cadence does increase power. Also, watch how Chris Froome drops competitors on climbs by spinning up fast cadences. Perfect case study in how cadence affects power.
Thanks Steve. Ill check that out. I always thought i was using less watts than you guys on a ride by spinning up fast. Using cardio or something. I was trying to build my cardio not focused on power. If i was also building power thats sweet too.

I still think having gears to train is important because you can target certain resistance without getting your heart way up. Then when you jump on the SS you have power at all cadences and heart rate.



Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
557 Posts
Hey guys, very interesting thoughts on the training. I too am planning on racing those events: Wilderness 101, Shenandoah 100, now the Chrotched MTN (glad to hear it is back on!). I am also hoping to mix in a few 6 and 12 hour events and the Carrabassett Valley Backcountry Challenge that I normally do on a single speed. I am not sure I want to try the 100 milers on my single speed, having never raced that distance before.

If any of yall are in central / southern Maine give me a shout if you would like some company for some longer training rides. Best of luck in 2017!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
I'm doing 3 NUE races next season too but not all hundos. I'm doing Mohican 100k, Big Frog 65 and Lumberjack 100. This is the first time I've done more than 1 NUE race in a season so it will be interesting to how I hold up. I've done Lumberjack twice now and really enjoyed it. Dropped almost an hour and fifteen minutes off my time this year by training smart. I decided to do the 2 shorter distance races in April and May as training races with the aim to peak for Lumberjack in June. I think this prioritization of races is key to managing recovery and not burning out. We're not all Brian Schwrom here so trying to peak for three ultras in a row is asking a lot of ourselves. I use Training Peaks to plan and prioritize my races. Mohican and Big Frog are B races for me with Lumberjack as an A. Setting this up in a Training Peaks Annual Training Plan will give you a good layout to know how much training volume between races is necessary to maintain fitness while providing for adequate recovery time. Aside from that, just be very dilligent about good nutrition, foam rolling, stretching, getting plenty of sleep and you should do well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,602 Posts
Assuming you go into the first one with a good fitness foundation, you'll have plenty of recovery before the second (three weeks IIRC). Always conduct initial 100 recovery by feel. I've felt great in two days (once!), and I've taken 6 days. I can't put rhyme or reason to that variation.

In order to ensure recovery for the third -- having only two weeks recovery -- I would add to the good posts above that you NEED to make sure you are not over-geared in the second. That could put muscle fatigue into your legs that might be tough to get rid of that quickly.

Good luck! Personally, I don't have much trouble fitness-wise, but I've never been able to wrap my head around more than two of these in one season.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
748 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
In order to ensure recovery for the third -- having only two weeks recovery -- I would add to the good posts above that you NEED to make sure you are not over-geared in the second. That could put muscle fatigue into your legs that might be tough to get rid of that quickly.
Great point, and thanks for the reminder. Likewise I don't want to fall behind on fueling/hydration in that 2nd race (well, any of them really, but ESPECIALLY the 2nd one) as that will deepen the fatigue hole I need to dig out of.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,728 Posts
You will want to plateau rather than peak. 3 big races in a few weeks time sounds tough, but may not be that much. Last year I did 4 big events in 5 weeks. 46miler 6hr, Then 2 weeks later 55 mile 9 hr, week later 71 mile 10 hr follow up 1 week later 60 mile 9 hr. then 1 month later a 100 miler-11hrs. In the end I was stronger at the end of these than at the start of these. I sort of used each event as part of my training. I am not a fast "winner" type, but still do reasonably well in these type events. If your goal is to finish and hopefully finish well, but not really "win" then mentally consider all as series. No point crossing the first so spent you can't ride for days as it will hurt for the next 2. Finish strong and plan light recovery right after and then get right back into a maintenance training mode. Some good efforts, but nothing too crazy. Focus not on improving, but letting the body heal up while keeping aerobic fitness.
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Top