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TPC feels a lot more "dead" and innactive than TPC+ does. I had a TPC fork and tried to tune it extensively, but it never felt like a marzocchi or other well damped fork. TPC+ on the other hand was a pretty big improvement, and actually produced a pretty "plush" and active feel. TPC+ is hands down better.
 

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I agree with JM's assessment. I went from a X-Vert Super with TPC+ to a Black Super with TPC. Even with the extra 20mm of travel of the Black, I miss my old X-Vert. The TPC+ does a good job of keeping things plush at the beginning of the stroke and firming things up nicely in the mid to top end. TPC+ was really nice and I hope that the SPV is a good replacement.
 

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"El Whatever"
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Yup.... TPC is where Manitou made its fame as bouncy forks.

TPC works just fine. But is a bit bouncy no matter how you adjust it.

FFD is a bit better but not better than TPC+
 

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Warp2003 said:
Yup.... TPC is where Manitou made its fame as bouncy forks.

TPC works just fine. But is a bit bouncy no matter how you adjust it.

FFD is a bit better but not better than TPC+
FFD sucks. Its the cheapest of them all. Its nothing more than a port that allows oil/fluid flow through. Hence the name fluid flow damping.
 

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"El Whatever"
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It mightbe a matter of personal taste....

Hecubus said:
FFD sucks. Its the cheapest of them all. Its nothing more than a port that allows oil/fluid flow through. Hence the name fluid flow damping.
I've owned both TPC ('00 SX) and FFD ('03 Axel) and found a bit better the FFD. Or may just be that the Axel has adjustable rebound and I found the sweet spot out of it. The fact that it has less parts than TPC is another ticket. A properly engineered part can be better than a bunch of poorly designed parts put together.

The SX used to be very bouncy and while it had decent compression damping at high speed the fork felt a lot more nervous (this opinion is isolated from bike geometry) and bouncy. The Axel felt better at speed and over compromised terrain but I must accept it did dive a lot more than the SX. Axel's compression damping is less compliant and depends more on correct spring selection.

But again, TPC+ is far better and IMHO Manipoo would've just refined the TPC like Zoke did with SSV instead of tossing in another system like FFD.

Correct me if I'm wrong but is actual TPC what it was called TPC+ years ago???
I don't remember quite well but I guess TPC+ referred to TPC plus lockout??
 

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Hum the 2005 Nixon Elite is TPC...

You might be right, the new 05 is listed as TPC and not TPC+... I would be surprised if Manitou would be going backwards so I would assume the 05 TPC is most probably as good if not better than earlier versions of TPC or TPC+.

I really like the spec of that 05, 115 to 145mm of adjustable travel, 4.6lbs and 32mm stanchions...hummmm

Cheers.

Warp2003 said:
I've owned both TPC ('00 SX) and FFD ('03 Axel) and found a bit better the FFD. Or may just be that the Axel has adjustable rebound and I found the sweet spot out of it. The fact that it has less parts than TPC is another ticket. A properly engineered part can be better than a bunch of poorly designed parts put together.

The SX used to be very bouncy and while it had decent compression damping at high speed the fork felt a lot more nervous (this opinion is isolated from bike geometry) and bouncy. The Axel felt better at speed and over compromised terrain but I must accept it did dive a lot more than the SX. Axel's compression damping is less compliant and depends more on correct spring selection.

But again, TPC+ is far better and IMHO Manipoo would've just refined the TPC like Zoke did with SSV instead of tossing in another system like FFD.

Correct me if I'm wrong but is actual TPC what it was called TPC+ years ago???
I don't remember quite well but I guess TPC+ referred to TPC plus lockout??
 

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"El Whatever"
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Let me correct myself... TPC+ is not TPC plus lockout but the system now used with the floating piston.

The standard TPC has a fixed piston (like the one found in my '00 SX) which is a fine damping system but not better than FFD IMHO.

TPC+ with its floating piston sits up there with HSCV for the best damping systems. Even the apporach is similar with the differences given by the open bath or closed cartridge arrangements.

I would rank them: 1.- TPC+ hands down. 2.- FFD 3.- TPC
 

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Justin Vander Pol
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It looks like we've got a bunch of Manitou damping experts in the room together, so I'll try this question with y'all.

TPC+ rocks (on my '03 Firefly) - super supple on the chattery stuff and resists bottoming better than my SuperT. But... my one big beef is the rebound and compression circuits use the same fluid. I can't slow rebound down enough, but if I go up to 7.5wt fluid, I get too much compression damping, and even at that the rebound is too fast for harsh drops (its great for normal xc). The same beef can be looked at as the rebound damping not having enough range in its adjustment.

Does anyone know if you can easily modify the rebound assembly to get more damping? It didn't look like changing the shims would do much since there's a spring controlling the high-speed damping. I'll have to look closer and maybe just throw caution to the wind and make some changes.

If I can't get this figured out there will be a well-used '03 firefly with TPC+ for sale for cheap...
 

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juice said:
It looks like we've got a bunch of Manitou damping experts in the room together, so I'll try this question with y'all.

TPC+ rocks (on my '03 Firefly) - super supple on the chattery stuff and resists bottoming better than my SuperT. But... my one big beef is the rebound and compression circuits use the same fluid. I can't slow rebound down enough, but if I go up to 7.5wt fluid, I get too much compression damping, and even at that the rebound is too fast for harsh drops (its great for normal xc). The same beef can be looked at as the rebound damping not having enough range in its adjustment.

Does anyone know if you can easily modify the rebound assembly to get more damping? It didn't look like changing the shims would do much since there's a spring controlling the high-speed damping. I'll have to look closer and maybe just throw caution to the wind and make some changes.

If I can't get this figured out there will be a well-used '03 firefly with TPC+ for sale for cheap...
On my TPC manitou I could rearrange the shim stack to provide less or more compression damping. I was under the impression that this feature was carried over to TPC+. So you'd rearrange your shims for less compression damping, if there's a free-bleed screw like there was on the older TPC you'd prbably want to back it out a bit too, and then increase the oil weight.
 

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Warp2003 said:
I've owned both TPC ('00 SX) and FFD ('03 Axel) and found a bit better the FFD. Or may just be that the Axel has adjustable rebound and I found the sweet spot out of it. The fact that it has less parts than TPC is another ticket. A properly engineered part can be better than a bunch of poorly designed parts put together.

The SX used to be very bouncy and while it had decent compression damping at high speed the fork felt a lot more nervous (this opinion is isolated from bike geometry) and bouncy. The Axel felt better at speed and over compromised terrain but I must accept it did dive a lot more than the SX. Axel's compression damping is less compliant and depends more on correct spring selection.

But again, TPC+ is far better and IMHO Manipoo would've just refined the TPC like Zoke did with SSV instead of tossing in another system like FFD.

Correct me if I'm wrong but is actual TPC what it was called TPC+ years ago???
I don't remember quite well but I guess TPC+ referred to TPC plus lockout??
What you have there is a case where you are just comparing a newer, better fork. Seriously, FFD is crap, its the simplest, cheapest form of damping, drill a hole to let some fluid pass. Thats why its found on only the lowest end of their forks. TPC is waaaayy better than FFD, there's simply no argument there.
 

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FFD may be crap, but it sure feels good in my Skareb. In fact, I think it works as well as my Fox Float.
 

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CDMC said:
FFD may be crap, but it sure feels good in my Skareb. In fact, I think it works as well as my Fox Float.
at 5mph.

that's how marzocchi sells their MX and Jr T forks amongst others (basically all the ones that have SSV and SSVF damping).....they simply feel "as plush" as the top end models on the show-room floor, and at slow speeds.
 

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Fluid Flow Damping is the replacement for TPC Sport. TPC sport had problems with breaking shims, this might or might not be the reason manitou rehashed it. It's a cheaper system and doesn't compare to TPC.

TPC has one compression piston. TPC+ has two, one fixed piston that all the oil flows through and one floating piston which moves with the fluid, providing less compression damping for the first 40mm or so of wheel travel.

I've got both, performance wise (traction etc) there's nothing in it, but the TPC+ has a much better small bump feel to it.

As for rebound control. The TPC runs oil through the adjustable port and the rebound piston shims when the fork is extending. Adding more shims to the rebound piston (the one attached to the sliding shaft) will make more oil flow through the adjustable port giving a slower adjustment range.
 

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Do It Yourself
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I bet the problem with your 2000 SX was the tall elastomer stack and short spring and not on the TPC side. The 2003 Axel has a full length spring with no MCU so no doubt that feels better.
 

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Jm. said:
Well then I better slow down because the Skareb feels good at 5mph, 10mph, 20mph, even 30mph bombing down a fire road.

Don't forget there is more than just design to a shock, there is implementation. There are many auto shocks that are "more" sophisticated designs than Koni's and Bilsteins, but guess what most of the guys are still running at the track, Koni and Bilstein. They work better than most "newer" designs, in large part to their careful construction and assembly.
 

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Homebrew said:
I bet the problem with your 2000 SX was the tall elastomer stack and short spring and not on the TPC side. The 2003 Axel has a full length spring with no MCU so no doubt that feels better.
interesting.

i have a six deluxe which i have slowly become less pleased with. though it seems nicely controlled, it seems too progressive/harsh, which i believe is due to the elastomer.
i have tried lighter elastomers (too much sag), and a bunch of combos of springs/elastomer. it is a good fork, but i would prefer a more linear feel, with gentle ramp up toward the end of travel.

the really strange thing is that my angryasian with englunds has a nicer feel, yet only 70mm travel.

my next fork will probably be coil, however, i have not ruled out an air fork--if i can find one that is not overly progressive nor too expensive. $500 for a fork is imho crazy.

interesting thread!

Bob
 

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"El Whatever"
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Might be too late for me....

Homebrew said:
I bet the problem with your 2000 SX was the tall elastomer stack and short spring and not on the TPC side. The 2003 Axel has a full length spring with no MCU so no doubt that feels better.
But do you know if there are any full springs available for these models??? If the newer SIX do, they might fit the SX...
 
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