Check the oil volume in the damper. A spring from a Fox 40 will not help you. If the oil level in the damper is a few cc's low, there is not as much ramp up. Or you can add a few cc's to give you a bit more bottom out resistance. It doesn't take much to make a difference. 3cc's either way makes a difference on my Totem. Check the damper and then put in the yellow spring with minimum preload. You could also get the new Mission Control DH damper from the newer Totems and put it in your fork.
Totem going off the deep end....
OK..so I was doing waaay to much thinking the other day. Would a fox 40 coil fit in a Totem? Anyone have a fox 40 fork spring they could measure the external diameter and length?
I've had a Totem coil for the last year. It has to be dialed too stiff to avoid bottoming. I'm 175 geared up and I've tried it all - sent my fork in, Sram says it's working properly, blue spring with max preload spacers, Yellow spring (too stiff). My thought is if I can get a fox 40 spring to fit, I could try that. The Totem spring is linear. My understanding is the Fox 40 spring is more of a progressive rate. sounds crazy, but, I think this could work for me.
What do you guys think?
I've had a Totem coil for the last year. It has to be dialed too stiff to avoid bottoming. I'm 175 geared up and I've tried it all - sent my fork in, Sram says it's working properly, blue spring with max preload spacers, Yellow spring (too stiff). My thought is if I can get a fox 40 spring to fit, I could try that. The Totem spring is linear. My understanding is the Fox 40 spring is more of a progressive rate. sounds crazy, but, I think this could work for me.
What do you guys think?
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Your understanding about the fox springs is incorrect. They are NOT a progressive spring.
The mission control damper has LOTS of adjustability...and is designed to use (relies on) LSC. If you want the marshmallowey, brake dive, and overtravel feel, you might want to try the new DH damper (it should be closer to that feel, but hopefully not as silly as something like an older Marz), as the stock mission control is designed to (and needs to be used this way) set up to prevent wallowy overtravel and to hold you further up in the travel. For that to happen, you need to utilize the LSC and gate blowoff (correctly).
The mission control damper has LOTS of adjustability...and is designed to use (relies on) LSC. If you want the marshmallowey, brake dive, and overtravel feel, you might want to try the new DH damper (it should be closer to that feel, but hopefully not as silly as something like an older Marz), as the stock mission control is designed to (and needs to be used this way) set up to prevent wallowy overtravel and to hold you further up in the travel. For that to happen, you need to utilize the LSC and gate blowoff (correctly).
Remove the floodgate.
No floodgate internals = less restriction to oil flow = suppleness. LSC and HSC remain in tact. Search Lyrik or Totem floodgate mod.
No floodgate internals = less restriction to oil flow = suppleness. LSC and HSC remain in tact. Search Lyrik or Totem floodgate mod.
OK thanks - I guess I was reading an old thread and turns out Go-ride had some springs custom made for the Fox 40 (two per side) and one was a higher rating making it progressive.
Myarmisonfire - oil level is fine - tried what you mentioned a while ago and still bottoms out easy either way. I sorta wish I never sold my Marz 66 ETA to get this fork. It was just as supple, only it wouldn't bottom out on a 5' drop or hard g-out. The only way I can get this Totem to work is to make the ride more harsh (yellow spring minimum preload and back off the settings all the way).
I ordered an air spring kit and I'm gonna give it a go. If that doesn't do the trick I'm gonna try the floodgate removal. My air spring kit should be here on Monday so we'll see. I'll let you know how the testing goes. For my rebuild, I got all new seals on both sides and going to put Redline oil in it. We'll see what happens - thanks!
Myarmisonfire - oil level is fine - tried what you mentioned a while ago and still bottoms out easy either way. I sorta wish I never sold my Marz 66 ETA to get this fork. It was just as supple, only it wouldn't bottom out on a 5' drop or hard g-out. The only way I can get this Totem to work is to make the ride more harsh (yellow spring minimum preload and back off the settings all the way).
I ordered an air spring kit and I'm gonna give it a go. If that doesn't do the trick I'm gonna try the floodgate removal. My air spring kit should be here on Monday so we'll see. I'll let you know how the testing goes. For my rebuild, I got all new seals on both sides and going to put Redline oil in it. We'll see what happens - thanks!
Dave, I'm curious. Redline does not make an oil with the same viscosity as Torco(Rock Shoxs). Are you going to mix two different weights to achieve the same viscosity or are you purposely going to use a heavier or lighter oil?
Secondly, that floodgate mod literally takes about 10 minutes to perform. It might be worth trying first, just for the sake of keeping things simplistic. If you don't like it, you just put the parts back in and it's like nothing ever happened to your fork. Good luck.
Secondly, that floodgate mod literally takes about 10 minutes to perform. It might be worth trying first, just for the sake of keeping things simplistic. If you don't like it, you just put the parts back in and it's like nothing ever happened to your fork. Good luck.
I'm going to mix two for the speed lube part, but, for the damper, I'm going to use the light yellow (just a hair over the Rock Shox Viscosity). Here's a great chart I found:
http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/lowspeed.htm
Problem is that I hit a boulder and killed my lowers. I ordered up a new set and figured, while I have it apart, its time to do some experimenting on all of it. May just try one at a time though.
I'm confused as to how the floodgate mod helps? Is the theory by removing the mushroom cap, it will open up the LSC circuit more (increase plushness on small bumps) before the HSC circuit opens? My problem is I'm looking for the plushness I had with my Marz 66 with ramping up toward the very end. Everything I've done to the Totem so far just makes the ride rough and STILL bottoms out on around 5' drops to transition.
I'm 175 geared up, so, I wouldn't think I should be having so much trouble.
http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/lowspeed.htm
Problem is that I hit a boulder and killed my lowers. I ordered up a new set and figured, while I have it apart, its time to do some experimenting on all of it. May just try one at a time though.
I'm confused as to how the floodgate mod helps? Is the theory by removing the mushroom cap, it will open up the LSC circuit more (increase plushness on small bumps) before the HSC circuit opens? My problem is I'm looking for the plushness I had with my Marz 66 with ramping up toward the very end. Everything I've done to the Totem so far just makes the ride rough and STILL bottoms out on around 5' drops to transition.
I'm 175 geared up, so, I wouldn't think I should be having so much trouble.
By the way, I have tried a 10wt Bel Ray in the past to just see what happend. My bushings (in the lowers) were so worn that it made the fork knock when the compression was turned up (too much bushing play). I'm very interested to see how it works with the new lowers (new bushings).
That doesn't sound right. I'm about your same weight and I don't have the issues you are having. I've done 5' to dead flat and it didn't bottom harshly. I've also done 15'+ to tranny and it was quite smooth. I run the standard spring w/no spacers with both compressions settings wide open. If I'm doing drops I'll rune a few clicks of HSC to prevent bottom out.
The mod won't help with bottom out but it does make it perform better with the small bumps. I'm very happy with the mod and won't go back.
The air might be harder to bottom out with the proper pressure but it will feel harsher on the small bumps than the coil and you'll feel it in your mid stroke. I converted from air to coil on mine because of this.
Wish I could offer some help on why yours bottoms so easily. My guess would be a damper/oil issue.
The mod won't help with bottom out but it does make it perform better with the small bumps. I'm very happy with the mod and won't go back.
The air might be harder to bottom out with the proper pressure but it will feel harsher on the small bumps than the coil and you'll feel it in your mid stroke. I converted from air to coil on mine because of this.
Wish I could offer some help on why yours bottoms so easily. My guess would be a damper/oil issue.
I don't know what the deal is. I have a drop on one of our trails that's about 5' to 5 1/2' to almost flat and I bottom out nearly everytime. That's with the standard (blue) spring, 5 preload spacers and HSC and LSC all the way up (stock oil - no other mods). I know the damper is working - Last year, I tested it and also sent the fork into RS.
On that same drop, my old Marz 66 would still have 1" of travel left (stock-no changes). Would my rebound assembly have anything to do with compression, or, is it basically the displacement of the rebound damper shaft assembly moving up that pushes the oil through the compression damper?
Just trying to figure this out
On that same drop, my old Marz 66 would still have 1" of travel left (stock-no changes). Would my rebound assembly have anything to do with compression, or, is it basically the displacement of the rebound damper shaft assembly moving up that pushes the oil through the compression damper?
Just trying to figure this out
Actually bottoming out on a 5 to 5 1/2 to flat sounds about what I get. It doesn't clank but I do go through all of the travel. I had a 36 that would clank every time on a drop that size. Your fork might be operating just fine. You're probably just use to the 66's superior bottom out control.daverach2478 said:I don't know what the deal is. I have a drop on one of our trails that's about 5' to 5 1/2' to almost flat and I bottom out nearly everytime. That's with the standard (blue) spring, 5 preload spacers and HSC and LSC all the way up (stock oil - no other mods). I know the damper is working - Last year, I tested it and also sent the fork into RS.
On that same drop, my old Marz 66 would still have 1" of travel left (stock-no changes). Would my rebound assembly have anything to do with compression, or, is it basically the displacement of the rebound damper shaft assembly moving up that pushes the oil through the compression damper?
Just trying to figure this out
There´s an easy way.
Just get some elastomers (from an old fork, every LBS should have a box with old fork parts) put them into the spring side of your totem, in addition to the spring.
They´ll have to be smaller than the inside diameter of the Totem spring...
Worked great in Psylos and Boxxer Ride forks.
Cheaper than a 40 spring too =)
Through cutting them or adding additional elastomers you can get the spring curve you want. Just use the softest you can obtain, so the ramp up won t be as steep.
Greetings Znarf
Just get some elastomers (from an old fork, every LBS should have a box with old fork parts) put them into the spring side of your totem, in addition to the spring.
They´ll have to be smaller than the inside diameter of the Totem spring...
Worked great in Psylos and Boxxer Ride forks.
Cheaper than a 40 spring too =)
Through cutting them or adding additional elastomers you can get the spring curve you want. Just use the softest you can obtain, so the ramp up won t be as steep.
Greetings Znarf
I never thought of trying that - so, you mean run them on the shaft inside the coil? If I did that, I would have to use quite a few elastomers wouldn't I? I would basically have to take:
Length of the spring (12.5") - full travel (7") = 5.5" of fully compressed spring. that would mean I'd need about 7-8" of elastomers on the shaft running inside the coil to affect the last 1.5-2.5" of tavel.
It figures...every time I throw something away, I could use it. I just threw away a super old elastomer spring fork about a week ago....could have been an easy experiment. Anyone else done this on a coil fork?
Length of the spring (12.5") - full travel (7") = 5.5" of fully compressed spring. that would mean I'd need about 7-8" of elastomers on the shaft running inside the coil to affect the last 1.5-2.5" of tavel.
It figures...every time I throw something away, I could use it. I just threw away a super old elastomer spring fork about a week ago....could have been an easy experiment. Anyone else done this on a coil fork?
Yeah, would be quite a lot of elastomer. The Boxxer Ride u-turn spring had some really loooong elastomer in it. I even had to cut it down a bit because the fork had crazy rampup (for huckers).
It was not the dense and heavy elastomer stuff like the Quadra21 and cheap Judys had, but some kind of puffy, foamy stuff. Yet it helped with bottoming and was quite light, if my mind doesn´t play tricks on me it was of yellow color.
Maybe you can obtain stuff like that somewhere. You could also try putting some shrinktape on the spring. Seems to increase rampup too, of course it only slightly alters spring rate. (I don´t know what the proper english word for shrinkwrap/shrinktape is, sorry)
And yeah, one should keep all that old bike stuff. The girlfriend tries to force me to throw out all that old dirty, oily plunder. Everytime I do as ordered, I could use some part of the disposed stuff a couple of days later.:skep:
Greetings Znarf
It was not the dense and heavy elastomer stuff like the Quadra21 and cheap Judys had, but some kind of puffy, foamy stuff. Yet it helped with bottoming and was quite light, if my mind doesn´t play tricks on me it was of yellow color.
Maybe you can obtain stuff like that somewhere. You could also try putting some shrinktape on the spring. Seems to increase rampup too, of course it only slightly alters spring rate. (I don´t know what the proper english word for shrinkwrap/shrinktape is, sorry)
And yeah, one should keep all that old bike stuff. The girlfriend tries to force me to throw out all that old dirty, oily plunder. Everytime I do as ordered, I could use some part of the disposed stuff a couple of days later.:skep:
Greetings Znarf
The parts finally made it to my door! Just put the new solo air spring in, did the floodgate mod and put on the new lowers (old ones hit a boulder and dented). I effectively have a brand new solo air Totem. It was too late to do anything short of a parking lot test, but, I'm really surprized at how close it feels to when it used to be a coil! Very smooth..and the weight of my bike feels a bit more even. New seals, o-rings and oil work wonders...
Real testing will happen tomorrow. I put in 5 wt redline oil which is a bit thicker than the rock shox 5 wt, so, we'll see what happens tomorrow on the trails!
I do have one quick question if anyone has owned an air totem - does the travel not go all the way to the bottom because of a bumper or something for the air version? With the air cap off, it still leaves about 1/2" of fork. When I had it as a coil, I could take the coil out and the fork would go all the way down to the wipers using all of the fork. Anyone know?
Real testing will happen tomorrow. I put in 5 wt redline oil which is a bit thicker than the rock shox 5 wt, so, we'll see what happens tomorrow on the trails!
I do have one quick question if anyone has owned an air totem - does the travel not go all the way to the bottom because of a bumper or something for the air version? With the air cap off, it still leaves about 1/2" of fork. When I had it as a coil, I could take the coil out and the fork would go all the way down to the wipers using all of the fork. Anyone know?
did the changes make any difference?
Ya, a lot of die hard coil guy's really don't understand that air springs are catching up and in a really quick way. I mean this thread was basically the icing on the cake of why an infinitely adjustable air spring is better than those stupid coils.
I disagree. The problem isn't being coil sprung - most modern forks lack a progressive bottomout control , Why : adds weight & complexity to a cost / weight concious market. Air springs are not "infinitley" adjustable - you adjust the pressure only not the volume. Air sprung forks can suffer from a weak mid-stroke.Bikesair said:Ya, a lot of die hard coil guy's really don't understand that air springs are catching up and in a really quick way. I mean this thread was basically the icing on the cake of why an infinitely adjustable air spring is better than those stupid coils.
Well, I switched my coil spring to air and I can safely say I can't really feel a difference. The small bump sensitivity everyone is ranting about losing with air did not change (maybe from the floodgate mod). I lost about 1/2lb for a $80 rebuild with no performance loss - can't beat that.
I do notice if it's 2-3 PSI off, it makes a huge difference in small bump compliance, though. I'm 163lbs w/o gear and I have it set for 60PSI, 4 clicks on HSC and LSC from full open. Several spots where I used to bottom out on with a blue coil and 4-5 preload spacers is now a very nice bottomless feel and ramp up. If I go more than 60PSI it starts gettting bumpy. I still bottom out, but, not as much. Still bottoms out on the 5 ft drop (to almost flat). Here's what I did with my 2007 Totem coil:
-Swapped to air spring assembly
-Replaced all seals, rings, dust seals and oils seals.
-Removed floodgate
OIL:
-Suspension - Motorex 2.5 (I know it's not exact spec as OEM - exactly the point)
End Result - I had to turn my HSC and LSC up one more click (both 4 clicks from full open) to feel close to the same. Ramps up better, and bottoms out less...but...still does. Small bump compliance is the same. If I bump up either the HSC or LSC settings it gets more bumpy and makes no difference on the bottom out. If I could somehow do like a 2 stage HSC stack mod, that might be the ticket to make this thing work perfect. I just may give it a go for fun.
I do notice if it's 2-3 PSI off, it makes a huge difference in small bump compliance, though. I'm 163lbs w/o gear and I have it set for 60PSI, 4 clicks on HSC and LSC from full open. Several spots where I used to bottom out on with a blue coil and 4-5 preload spacers is now a very nice bottomless feel and ramp up. If I go more than 60PSI it starts gettting bumpy. I still bottom out, but, not as much. Still bottoms out on the 5 ft drop (to almost flat). Here's what I did with my 2007 Totem coil:
-Swapped to air spring assembly
-Replaced all seals, rings, dust seals and oils seals.
-Removed floodgate
OIL:
-Suspension - Motorex 2.5 (I know it's not exact spec as OEM - exactly the point)
End Result - I had to turn my HSC and LSC up one more click (both 4 clicks from full open) to feel close to the same. Ramps up better, and bottoms out less...but...still does. Small bump compliance is the same. If I bump up either the HSC or LSC settings it gets more bumpy and makes no difference on the bottom out. If I could somehow do like a 2 stage HSC stack mod, that might be the ticket to make this thing work perfect. I just may give it a go for fun.
Funny, the marketing guys have been saying the exact same thing........Bikesair said:Ya, a lot of die hard coil guy's really don't understand that air springs are catching up and in a really quick way. I mean this thread was basically the icing on the cake of why an infinitely adjustable air spring is better than those stupid coils.
For the last 10 years
Look at every section of MTB where ultimate performance is paramount (over weight), road and off road moto, on and off road auto of every sort, ATV, sleds, essentially any and every perfomance minded suspended application...............and tell me how superior air springs are....
When you are done there, for a more focused look at 'current MTB air spring tech' you should do a tally of the posts in the suspension forum of problems with air suspension vs coil. It would be HIGHLY contrary to your opinion.
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
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