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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ventana probs

LoneStar said:
I might try that in the coming months. The only thing that is really showing any wear on my six month old Salty is the decals on the down tube and stays. Most from small crashes and some from evil bike racks. Besides, I kind of like the clean look I have on my singlespeed with very limited decals.
I own a El Rey with exactly the same problems ... For a bike this expensive I think the problems with decals pealing off (using only water hose) is a turn-off in the large scale. Initially, I was in love with this bike and my reality check was turned off. I was sooo impressed I'd used a loadful of buck on a 29er and didn't realize just how much hype there is connected to this brand. The actual bikes are nowhere nearly as good as some reviewers seem to think. The brand is oversold IMO. El Rey ´07 suffers badly from toe rub and a really soft top tube. - Not something anybody with their senses working would accept from one of the other US brands which uses factories in Taiwan for the production. Today, the price you pay for a frame set equals a the price of a complete 29er bike w/o the faults that plagues El Rey (´07). This is the way the market works and no fault of Ventanas, I just feel I have suckered myself into believing that Ventana would be _better_ than all the rest of the 29er manufactorers. It's not. It isn't even on par with the rest when it comes to details like the cheap stickers/decals and the soft top tube ...
 

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Maybe I am not up on the latest lingo, but I have no idea what you are talking about besides the decals pealing off (I have a 2005 and the decals have never come off even once). What is "toe rub" and a "soft top tube"? Just curious, what kind of decals stay on better than the Ventana decals?
 

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Odnis said:
I own a El Rey with exactly the same problems ... For a bike this expensive I think the problems with decals pealing off (using only water hose) is a turn-off in the large scale. Initially, I was in love with this bike and my reality check was turned off. I was sooo impressed I'd used a loadful of buck on a 29er and didn't realize just how much hype there is connected to this brand. The actual bikes are nowhere nearly as good as some reviewers seem to think. The brand is oversold IMO. El Rey ´07 suffers badly from toe rub and a really soft top tube. - Not something anybody with their senses working would accept from one of the other US brands which uses factories in Taiwan for the production. Today, the price you pay for a frame set equals a the price of a complete 29er bike w/o the faults that plagues El Rey (´07). This is the way the market works and no fault of Ventanas, I just feel I have suckered myself into believing that Ventana would be _better_ than all the rest of the 29er manufactorers. It's not. It isn't even on par with the rest when it comes to details like the cheap stickers/decals and the soft top tube ...
You obviously haven't owned many bikes to say the finish on a Ventana is sub par. There is pretty much no bike maker in the industry that rivals the amount of detail put into a frame.

And you're seriously complaining about stickers? We all know that stickers are the most important performance aspect of any bike. :rolleyes: Besides, any decal you spray with a hose is going to peel and come off. Just call Teresa and have her send you a new set. And since we're talking about stickers, mine are just fine after plenty of use. Then again, I don't hose down any of my bikes, as I'd like the bearings in all my parts to last for more than a month.

A soft top tube? Never heard of or experienced that before. I have no idea how you'd even determine that. And if you have toe rub, that sucks, but it seems that should have been determined before you bought the bike, not years later.
 

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The Bubble Wrap Hysteria
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Odnis said:
I own a El Rey with exactly the same problems ... For a bike this expensive I think the problems with decals pealing off (using only water hose) is a turn-off in the large scale.
And you can replace the decals with ease. If you base your entire experience on a set of decals then you should be really pissed off when you mash the rear derailleur on a rock or case a jump putting a flat spot on your rear wheel. It's a flucking decal call Ventana a buy a dozen of them. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Odnis said:
I was sooo impressed I'd used a loadful of buck on a 29er and didn't realize just how much hype there is connected to this brand. The actual bikes are nowhere nearly as good as some reviewers seem to think. The brand is oversold IMO.
No, 29ers are oversold......you drank the cool aid :nono: Buying a bike on subjective opinions posted on mtbr.com or what you read in mtn bike action is moronic and you have no one else to blame but yourself. Demo a bike before you blindly lay down the cash.

Odnis said:
El Rey ´07 suffers badly from toe rub and a really soft top tube. - Not something anybody with their senses working would accept from one of the other US brands which uses factories in Taiwan for the production.
Toe rub is one of the bad things that happen to 29ers below a certain frame size......from what I have seen it is what it is....short people have no reason to ride 29ers :D

What do you mean by a "soft top tube"? Because I get a HARD center tube when I'm riding my Ciclon with that big massive 2" downtube........maybe you need Viagra to get your top tube hard.....;) ;) ;) ;)

Odnis said:
Today, the price you pay for a frame set equals a the price of a complete 29er bike w/o the faults that plagues El Rey (´07). This is the way the market works and no fault of Ventanas.
Customer service on isle 29 we have an unhappy customer. Then sell your POS 2007 El Rey and buy a complete 29er.....but please stop beetching on the internet….get over it already.

Odnis said:
I just feel I have suckered myself into believing that Ventana would be _better_ than all the rest of the 29er manufactorers.
That might be a character flaw not any fault of Ventana......:madmax: :madmax:

Odnis said:
It's not. It isn't even on par with the rest when it comes to details like the cheap stickers/decals and the soft top tube ...
Then I guess you will not like brands like Santa Cruz, Turner, Titus and others.......that powder coat first then apply decals. I see it as an option because I can remove the decals and then reapply them as needed. I think you will find it's not a big issue.
 

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mtnbiker4life said:
And you can replace the decals with ease. If you base your entire experience on a set of decals then you should be really pissed off when you mash the rear derailleur on a rock or case a jump putting a flat spot on your rear wheel. It's a flucking decal call Ventana a buy a dozen of them. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No, 29ers are oversold......you drank the cool aid :nono: Buying a bike on subjective opinions posted on mtbr.com or what you read in mtn bike action is moronic and you have no one else to blame but yourself. Demo a bike before you blindly lay down the cash.

Toe rub is one of the bad things that happen to 29ers below a certain frame size......from what I have seen it is what it is....short people have no reason to ride 29ers :D

What do you mean by a "soft top tube"? Because I get a HARD center tube when I'm riding my Ciclon with that big massive 2" downtube........maybe you need Viagra to get your top tube hard.....;) ;) ;) ;)

Customer service on isle 29 we have an unhappy customer. Then sell your POS 2007 El Rey and buy a complete 29er.....but please stop beetching on the internet….get over it already.

That might be a character flaw not any fault of Ventana......:madmax: :madmax:

Then I guess you will not like brands like Santa Cruz, Turner, Titus and others.......that powder coat first then apply decals. I see it as an option because I can remove the decals and then reapply them as needed. I think you will find it's not a big issue.
+1+1+1+1+1

Seriously.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
lemmy999 said:
Maybe I am not up on the latest lingo, but I have no idea what you are talking about besides the decals pealing off (I have a 2005 and the decals have never come off even once). What is "toe rub" and a "soft top tube"? Just curious, what kind of decals stay on better than the Ventana decals?
Sorry to blur the discussion in this thread by intertwining three different issues. My bad. If you do not know about "toe rub" and "soft top tubes" I suggest you google these specific terms and you'll find them to be rather well known :) hated) technical issues on bicycles from brands of less prominent status than eg. V.

I guess I must be a little older than you because when I started bike racing (1980) every quality bikes would be clearcoated. (The only part of a bikes graphics that sometimes could come off was the front badge). I am also reactionary: Today I still think that this is how bike graphics ought to be done. Everything else is short cutting things imho.

I don't see myself as a cry baby or a troll in this forum. I like to ride my El Rey when I know that I'm going somewhere this bike is up for. Initially, I wanted to share my thoughts about decals pealing off, but I guess I got emotional and forgot what my subject was and who I would be addressing. My bad again.
 

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Odnis said:
Sorry to blur the discussion in this thread by intertwining three different issues. My bad. If you do not know about "toe rub" and "soft top tubes" I suggest you google these specific terms and you'll find them to be rather well known :) hated) technical issues on bicycles from brands of less prominent status than eg. V.

I guess I must be a little older than you because when I started bike racing (1980) every quality bikes would be clearcoated. (The only part of a bikes graphics that sometimes could come off was the front badge). I am also reactionary: Today I still think that this is how bike graphics ought to be done. Everything else is short cutting things imho.

I don't see myself as a cry baby or a troll in this forum. I like to ride my El Rey when I know that I'm going somewhere this bike is up for. Initially, I wanted to share my thoughts about decals pealing off, but I guess I got emotional and forgot what my subject was and who I would be addressing. My bad again.
First, it's not our job to do your research to validate your claims. If you're going to put a claim out there like "soft top tubes" then back it up with your research otherwise you're just trolling. This happens a lot on mtbr.....posting think they can post some BS then run away from it and hope it sticks.....well, I am calling BS unless you can show me data to back it up.

Second, toe overlap is not a new issue. It's an issue with most 29er frames below a certain size which I believe is 18 inch frame size......I'm not 100% on the frame size but I remember reading a post a few years ago on the 29er forum.

Third, the clear coat over decals happens when the frame manufacture "wet" paints the frames. I know some PC decal materials can stand the heat of a powder coat oven....so I am sure this will be something we see in the near future. But, powder coating is much more environmentally friendly then "wet" painting. So you large manufactures like Trek, Fisher, Specialized, and all the "offshore" bike manufactures can afford to "wet" paint their frames.....because it's done in another country. And guess what China and other Asian countries do not have environmental regulations that prevent them from doing this.

Finally, I think you need to defend your statements with data instead of the "cut & run" mentality.

One more thing, if their is any small frame manufacture that has total control over all the manufacturing processes it's Ventana and Sherwood knows what he's doing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
mtnbiker4life said:
Finally, I think you need to defend your statements with data instead of the "cut & run" mentality.
I am sorry, but I live in Denmark. Otherwise I'd say: Come over to my house and try my bike. See for yourself how _soft_ it is. I am not an engineer and I'm unable to measure flex in the top tube. However, I have three other bikes from different brands and of different designs, none of them duallies, and none of these bikes feels the same way as my V. However, I have owned a 26" dual suspension for 3,5 years and it was nowhere near as soft as my El Rey. That is how I know. If you do not accept this comparison it's alright by me.

mtnbiker4life said:
One more thing, if their is any small frame manufacture that has total control over all the manufacturing processes it's Ventana and Sherwood knows what he's doing.
Yeah, right ... When I recieved my frame from a dealer in Stockholm/Sweden the down tube was dented. The dealer denied any damage on the frame and when I contacted Sherwood immediately afterwards he told me: Take a ride on the bike and see if you don't like it. He also sent me a sweat shirt. - Wow!

V. is a very small company which are not in control of their dealerships in other parts of the world. Had I not been so naive I would never have bought a frame from just reading hyped reviews. But I _am_ naive. And I don't see the point of this forum if one is only allowed to praise V. Then it's a cult and I don't want to be part of that.
 

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Odnis said:
I am sorry, but I live in Denmark. Otherwise I'd say: Come over to my house and try my bike. See for yourself how _soft_ it is. I am not an engineer and I'm unable to measure flex in the top tube. However, I have three other bikes from different brands and of different designs, none of them duallies, and none of these bikes feels the same way as my V. However, I have owned a 26" dual suspension for 3,5 years and it was nowhere near as soft as my El Rey. That is how I know. If you do not accept this comparison it's alright by me.

Yeah, right ... When I recieved my frame from a dealer in Stockholm/Sweden the down tube was dented. The dealer denied any damage on the frame and when I contacted Sherwood immediately afterwards he told me: Take a ride on the bike and see if you don't like it. He also sent me a sweat shirt. - Wow!

V. is a very small company which are not in control of their dealerships in other parts of the world. Had I not been so naive I would never have bought a frame from just reading hyped reviews. But I _am_ naive. And I don't see the point of this forum if one is only allowed to praise V. Then it's a cult and I don't want to be part of that.
You really can not blame Ventana for a damaged frame. I hardly think the blame rests with Ventana. That's what shipping insurance is for and whenever I send stuff overseas I insure my package. :thumbsup:

So when you mean "soft top tube" do you mean flex in the front triangle? If that is so, then give us some details because just making that statement is makes you look like a troll. What is your weight and height? Because if you're over 240 lbs you may need some special design requirements to make the front triangle as rigid as you want it. I opt.d for a 2 inch OD downtube on my Ciclon because I wanted a stiffer front triangle.

You can critize any brand on mtbr.com (including Ventana) that's what it's for but the way you have done it in this thread is you have made three or four statements but have not backed it up with the details. I'm not suggesting you have to be an engineer to give the details about a flexy front triangle......then to beetch about decals is really petty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
mtnbiker4life said:
So when you mean "soft top tube" do you mean flex in the front triangle? If that is so, then give us some details because just making that statement is makes you look like a troll. What is your weight and height? Because if you're over 240 lbs you may need some special design requirements to make the front triangle as rigid as you want it. I opt.d for a 2 inch OD downtube on my Ciclon because I wanted a stiffer front triangle.
Yes, I think that's what I mean. Holding the bars firmly and riding a flat hard surface at a brisk pace makes the front triangle wobble. It's not nice when the bike is challenged in tight technical singletrack because I have to compensate (by oversteering) to keep the wheels running i the right direction.

BIKE
Ventana El Rey 17" - standard frame. RS Reba forks, Bontrager Race Xlite wheels w. Panaracer Rampage 2,35, Saddle height Center BB - Top saddle: 75,5. Stem: 90 mm / 6 degees

www.sindoe.dk/pics/ventana

RIDER
Male, white caucasian, age 42, height 183: cm, weight: 74 kg., leg length: 85 cm.
 

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Odnis said:
Yes, I think that's what I mean. Holding the bars firmly and riding a flat hard surface at a brisk pace makes the front triangle wobble. It's not nice when the bike is challenged in tight technical singletrack because I have to compensate (by oversteering) to keep the wheels running i the right direction.

BIKE
Ventana El Rey 17" - standard frame. RS Reba forks, Bontrager Race Xlite wheels w. Panaracer Rampage 2,35, Saddle height Center BB - Top saddle: 75,5. Stem: 90 mm / 6 degees

www.sindoe.dk/pics/ventana

RIDER
Male, white caucasian, age 42, height 183: cm, weight: 74 kg., leg length: 85 cm.
At 6ft tall you should be on a 19" frame. A 17" is too small for you and that is causing your handling issues.

There is no way you have front triangle flex at 163 pounds. If you were 263 pounds, then maybe, but I'm calling BS at your feather weight. I weigh 190 and my Salty has zero flex anywhere.
 

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YRTRNRSHVY
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Ok, I still didn't know what "soft top tube" was (and a google search turned up nothing) but I assume toe rub is when the front tire rubs your toe when you turn the wheel. I guess I just never thought of that as a bike designer problem but more of a problem of the frame being too small for you. But I guess I can see an improperly designed bike with a steep HT angle and a short TT causing too rub. However if you are 183cm you shouldn't be on a 17". So I wouldn't think Sherwood would be the cause of your toe rub.

And like celluloid, I have no front triangle flex on my Salty and I weigh 185-190 with gear and I am no Ventana fanboy. I am actually selling my Salty and have purchased a Mojo SL. But I have been very happy with my Ventana...particularly the build quality and stiffness.
 

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i know it's kinda off topic, but reading this thing here left a question on my mind:

lot of people talking about frame flex, soft tubing, imprecise steering and whatsoever. but how can they tell if either the frame, the wheels, tires (e.g. wide tires on a small rim) or anything else flexes without measuring it - just by riding it? i wonder how they can exclusively blame frame flex for any steering issues....

sorry for off topic again:

well, to be on topic: i'm going to sandblast, wetpaint and re-sticker my salty next year in spring. and i'm not going to put the stickers under paint, just because i like the possibility to replace them whenever i want ;)
 

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el saltamontes said:
i know it's kinda off topic, but reading this thing here left a question on my mind:

lot of people talking about frame flex, soft tubing, imprecise steering and whatsoever. but how can they tell if either the frame, the wheels, tires (e.g. wide tires on a small rim) or anything else flexes without measuring it - just by riding it? i wonder how they can exclusively blame frame flex for any steering issues....

sorry for off topic again:

well, to be on topic: i'm going to sandblast, wetpaint and re-sticker my salty next year in spring. and i'm not going to put the stickers under paint, just because i like the possibility to replace them whenever i want ;)
I completely agree. Everyone talks about the lateral stiffness of the rear. My Salty is very stiff and my Mojo SL without the Lopes Link is fairly flexy. However the wheel/tire flex WAY more than any rear triangle does. So the Ventana frame flexes none and the wheels are 25mm side to side....then the Mojo frame flexes 5mm and the wheel flexes 25mm. 30mm compared to 25mm is not that big of a difference.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Off topic, again-again

el saltamontes said:
lot of people talking about frame flex, soft tubing, imprecise steering and whatsoever. but how can they tell if either the frame, the wheels, tires (e.g. wide tires on a small rim) or anything else flexes without measuring it - just by riding it? i wonder how they can exclusively blame frame flex for any steering issues....
I was out on my El Rey yesterday and after quite a lot of writing and reading in this forum thread I really concentrated on how the bike was performing laterally. And I have to admit: It's not just the frame that's causing the flex. - There's _some_ flex coming from the forks too, maybe even from the wheels. Still, I ride with wide loriser bars and I'm sure that this also is part of my problem: Wide bars give me high leverage and thet result is an subjective feeling of flex in the front triangle.

And back to subject: I think I'll peel off the remaining part of the small decals from the down tube and see what it looks like. I wont touch the front badge of course ;-)
 

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I'd take a very good look at that front triangle and search for cracks. Any creaks, or other weird noises?

I know it's unlikely, but frames can break. My wife is a very easy rider on her bikes but she had two (old school) Mongeese that cracked at the headtube.

She noticed a flexy feeling, and we were glad we caught it when we did.

Just a thought.

JmZ

celluloid hero said:
At 6ft tall you should be on a 19" frame. A 17" is too small for you and that is causing your handling issues.

There is no way you have front triangle flex at 163 pounds. If you were 263 pounds, then maybe, but I'm calling BS at your feather weight. I weigh 190 and my Salty has zero flex anywhere.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Stripes said:
Frame flex: If you'e riding flexy parts, you'll feel them on a Ventana. Ventanas are stiff enough to make the crapiness of other products obvious. Fork flex is a big thing you will notice on it if it's not stiff enough for your riding style.
I'm sure you're right. Besides, I'm tired of my Rock Shox Reba after riding it for +2 years. It flexes and it feels "dead" (rebound is too slow) I had it serviced in july but I've already considered changing the fork to a 100 mm fork. I was wondering what/if any effect this would have on my toe rub problem? It would certainly slacken the angle of the steering tube on the front triangle but I wonder what effect this would have on the quality of the ride? - Suggestions, anyone?!

Stripes said:
I'm familiar with riding on too small of a frame. I've done that for a while, and I'm now (as of tomorrow) going to have a 15" X-5 with a slacker HA instead of the 13" I've been riding.
I'm really puzzled by the comments in this thread about me riding a too small frame (which is supposed to induce frame flex). Isn't it the other way round?! Conventional wisdom would have that a smaller front triangle is stiffer, laterally, than a big one. - No?!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
JmZ said:
I'd take a very good look at that front triangle and search for cracks. Any creaks, or other weird noises?
Thanks for the good advice. I can't see any cracks or damages in the paint anywhere on the front triangle. At one point I was wondering if I had bent the down tube and the steering tube in a crash, thus causing the bloody annoying toe rub. But no, I can't see anything that indicates this. Unfortunately, I didn't measure the distance between the hubs when the frame was new so I don't have anything to measure structural damages up against as of today. - But maybe someone in this forum knows what a standard El Rey 17" should measure center-hub to center hub mounted with a RS Reba 80 mm fork?
 

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Odnis, you setup sounds bizzarre.

First of all, the El Rey was designed around a 100mm Fork in the FIRST place, NOT an 80mm. By running a too short a fork, this shortens the front hub to bottom bracket distance. (Part of your Toe Rub issue). Second, like others have mentioned, at 183cm = 6' tall, a 17" is too small for you. The TT is shorter and that keeps the front hub to BB distance shorter than a 19" would be. I bet you have size 44+ shoes right? (Taller people bigger feet) this all add up to YOUR toe rub issues not the frame.
Third, you have a tall inseam, (33.4") and yet you run a short Saddle height of 29") is that because you are AT the limit of the post, because the 17" frame is too short?...

Lastly, you mention the smaller triangle is stiffer than the larger..yes if all things are equal. But the larger triangles will have larger tubing or straight guage vs. butted.

Odonis, not picking on you here, but let's get this straight.

You came on this board, and laid down some serious accusation and even claimed "the brand is oversold" all while after a few terse exchanges we find out that...YOU

1) Are on the wrong size frame
and
2) Spec'ed the wrong travel fork

Along a few other oddities.. Um..Who's Oversold? You're opinion maybe?

Ok, ok, enough chastizing of ya..

Look into doing at least one thing right away. Switch to a 100mm fork. I'd check to see if the Reba is adjustable (internally) and see how much that reduces your toe rub issues and improves the handling of the bike, because as is, you are not getting the best of the frame. And Second call Sherwood back and see about trading in your front tri, and moving up to the 19". Yes it's more $$ but don't you think you a) should ride the proper size and b) the cost of a front tri has got to be WAY cheaper than going out and getting a new bike/frame.

Good luck.
-A
 

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When I recieved my frame from a dealer in Stockholm/Sweden
odnis, you got your bke from a dealer, right? so before spending any more bucks, i would just ask the dealer why he's sold you the wrong bike for your height! maybe you could get a little from there... i'm a long legged sixfooter like you and both of my ventanas are 19". and as ciclistagonzo mentioned, your fork is too short. you should be on a 501mm a2c fork instead of a 450mm like the reba (rough estimation, hope i'm not that far off...)

you could try the following:

1. loosen your stem cap and stem
2. pull out your fork
3. slide 5cm (or what the diff in a2c measurment really is between a 100mm and your 80mm reba) of headset spacers on your fork
4. put the fork back in your frame
5. without ANY load or riding, just by standing eg on your right leg (the one which feels safer) put your opposite leg in riding position (on the pedal) in the foremost crank position
6. toe-rub still there? bummer!
7. cut your toenails ;)
8. try again...
9. if it works - change your forks to a 500mm a2c model (most 100mm forks will spec that)
10. if not you still could try to change your front triangle
 
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