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Amphibious Technologies
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here's what Intense had to say:

"OUR OPINION is that the VPP is a better design. The wheel path is what its all about.
The design lends itself to being structurally stronger than the FSR style. There are two triangle shaped pieces with a VPP design. The front and the rears are tied together with linkages and it is still effectively four bars, BUT is a much better structure."


I personally disagree and would not trade my FSR/Horst link bike for a VPP, IMHO.

What do you'll think?

There's an almost one sided discussion on this at the Intense Forum an I thought I'd bring it here to get a more well rounded opinion.
 

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No, that's not phonetic
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I've sort of wondered the same thing. Let's say the front triangle is a stationary base. The "rear end" of the bike is a lever arm sticking out in back with a vertical load pushing on it (the wheel and ground, etc) but also lateral loads (pedaling, deflections, etc). We are obviously only worried about the lateral loads.

The greatest stress on the lever arm is near the attachment point with the stationary base (where the lever arm meets the front triangle). Maximum structural rigidity would be achieved by having as few linkages clustered close to the attachment point to the front triangle as possible, i.e., a single pivot near the bb (as with an FSR). Each bearing/bushing introduces possible slop, so the VPP with the pair of linkages proximal to the main triangle mount would appear to be sloppier (all other things being equal).

Attachment to the front triangle aside, the unified rear triangle of the VPP is more vertically rigid as a triangle (by definition), but we are not worried about vertical rigidity (remember?). There is no reason to think it is much more laterally rigid, whowever.
 

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Whatever about the wheel path....

It's a design which necessitates the use of a stable platform shock and suffers from brake jack, requiring a second bandaid in a floating brake apparatus.

Woopee about the wheel path.

My RFX pedals and brakes fine without a stable platform shock or a floating brake system.

More Hype IMO.
 

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www.derbyrims.com
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SCUBAPRO said:
Here's what Intense had to say:

"OUR OPINION is that the VPP is a better design. The wheel path is what its all about.
The design lends itself to being structurally stronger than the FSR style. There are two triangle shaped pieces with a VPP design. The front and the rears are tied together with linkages and it is still effectively four bars, BUT is a much better structure."


I personally disagree and would not trade my FSR/Horst link bike for a VPP, IMHO.

What do you'll think?

There's an almost one sided discussion on this at the Intense Forum an I thought I'd bring it here to get a more well rounded opinion.
For mostly lower speed technical trail riding I like low monopivots and Horst links better for pedaling and braking.

If I raced or had more than 5 inch travel I'd want VPP for the better pedaling without over firm damping.

I had an opportunity to ride a Blur in Moab for a day and test rode it in some rocks and bumpy single track for about 20 minutes behind the Chili Pepper BS. And decided I liked my 4-inch travel Tracer better in those conditions. But I'd rather ride the 5.5 VPP than my Tracer in the same conditions.

I haven't ridden a 5 inch monopivot or Horst link with the required platform shock there in Moab or similar really rough conditions so I cant' really say for sure I'd rather be on the VPP. But I don't like the feel of firm platform damping so I think the 5.5 VPP would be my preference with the same head angle. In smoother California conditions, definitely VPP, so I could run faster and softer damping.

- ray
 

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Amphibious Technologies
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
t66 said:
More Hype IMO.
Hype would certainly increase sales...And I think there is some amount of hype. I'm sure Intense would not admit to it but I think they got fed up with giving up a percentage of their sales to Specialized. Say they paid Specialized $100 per bike and sold 10,000 in one year. They would have to pay $1,000,000.00 to Specialized which is a lot of money. I think it was cheaper for them to pay SC a one time fee and hype up the VPP design. Profit is always the bottom line in any business. The VPP design is not really a bad one specially with the new platform shocks. I've know some VPP owners who have to change bearings often due to stress at the pivot points. I don't think this is a problem with the Turners (having to often replace bushings).
 

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derby said:
I haven't ridden a 5 inch monopivot or Horst link with the required platform shock there in Moab or similar really rough conditions so I cant' really say for sure I'd rather be on the VPP. But I don't like the feel of firm platform damping so I think the 5.5 VPP would be my preference with the same head angle. In smoother California conditions, definitely VPP, so I could run faster and softer damping.

- ray
I don't know if you've ridden a 5.5 or not, but I am assuming not from your comments. If you don't like a firm platform feel you won't be over keen on the 5.5 the only time I got mine to feel near as smooth as a four bar Horst was with a 5th coil fitted but Intense will not warranty a 5.5 when fitted with a coil apparantly. It's just not as responsive to bumps as a four bar.

It's a super efficient, and very fast as a cross country weapon but I don't think it's as versatile as a 5Spot. There is some pedal feedback and a little stiffening of the rear under braking but it's not a major problem you tend to notice it less after a while. There are also quite a few issues with forks that don't fit the frame for XS/S and some with M sizes. Fox RLC's, Shermans, Nixons, Pace, Pike, and some Z1's all hit the downtube on XS/S frame and some will not clear on a M either. I'm not sure why the headtube needs to be so low compared to the downtube, it can only gain fractions on standover?

No question in my mind it's more efficient over the ground than a four bar/Horst but I never felt it was a good downhill, I know more time is spent climbing than descending but I don't mind being slower up the hill if I can go faster back down :)

So as from today I'm back on a 5Spot and couldn't be happier :)

VPP not for me thanks, but it may be for you?
 

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t66 said:
It's a design which necessitates the use of a stable platform shock and suffers from brake jack, requiring a second bandaid in a floating brake apparatus.

Woopee about the wheel path.

My RFX pedals and brakes fine without a stable platform shock or a floating brake system.

More Hype IMO.
I've ridden an RFX for many years - it has a platform shock now (Push RC) - and pedals FAR better than it used to - in fact, about 6 months ago a friend and I were climbing our RFX's up a steep climb and I was on a Push'ed shock my friend on the standard Fox - his was bobbing all over the place - he sent his shock into Push the next day - so Horst link bikes DO benefit from stable platform shocks as much as any other

I also ride a VP Free - (with DHX) - so it too has a platform shock - the VPP design climbs as well if not better than the RFX ever did (including with the Push shock) and descends much better - now, how much of that has to do with axle path?? I am not an expert like DT or Dave Weigel (Evil/E 13) - and the VP Free has a different shock AND more travel than the RFX - the VP Free however has a real edge on rough trails - the faster I go the better it feels - stable and smooth...

The VP Free has NO noticable brake jack - it does not come with nor require a floating brake, so I don't know where you got that idea - in fact, I would say it's braking is actually better than my RFX's

all THAT said - both bikes are great - the RFX is now retired from heavy freeride use, and has become my aggresive trail ride bike - the Free takes the big hits etc. -

I think what would be a more interesting comparison would be the Highline - head to head with the VP Free (and I would LOVE to throw a Dave Weigel designed Ironhorse 7 into the mix for a third suspension design) - same fork, same shock etc. - let 'em rip their way down Whistler and may the best design win!
 

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No, that's not phonetic
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SCUBAPRO said:
Say they paid Specialized $100 per bike....
It's more like $4 per bike for the FSR license. I bet they could bump the price per bike by that much and not lose many customers. VPP is all about being the next best thing, and I do agree it rides extremely well. I'd be happy to own one and if I were after a bike with more travel than my Pack I would seriously consider one. I don't think it's a big deal on shorter travel bikes, but getting up around 7 and 8+ inches, platform shocks just don't really clean up enough after your choppy pedaling.

I think Intense's little quote you started this thread with is just marketing crap, but VPP does do other things very well, including pedaling.
 

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Ride 'Til Your Knees Hurt
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Been There Done That...

I've owned both a Blur and 5 Spot at the same time. The Blur is a fun bike to ride, but I seem to have a bigger smile on my face and more dirt in my teeth when I ride the 5 Spot.
 

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macrider said:
I've ridden an RFX for many years - it has a platform shock now (Push RC) - and pedals FAR better than it used to - in fact, about 6 months ago a friend and I were climbing our RFX's up a steep climb and I was on a Push'ed shock my friend on the standard Fox - his was bobbing all over the place - he sent his shock into Push the next day - so Horst link bikes DO benefit from stable platform shocks as much as any other

I also ride a VP Free - (with DHX) - so it too has a platform shock - the VPP design climbs as well if not better than the RFX ever did (including with the Push shock) and descends much better - now, how much of that has to do with axle path?? I am not an expert like DT or Dave Weigel (Evil/E 13) - and the VP Free has a different shock AND more travel than the RFX - the VP Free however has a real edge on rough trails - the faster I go the better it feels - stable and smooth...

The VP Free has NO noticable brake jack - it does not come with nor require a floating brake, so I don't know where you got that idea - in fact, I would say it's braking is actually better than my RFX's

all THAT said - both bikes are great - the RFX is now retired from heavy freeride use, and has become my aggresive trail ride bike - the Free takes the big hits etc. -

I think what would be a more interesting comparison would be the Highline - head to head with the VP Free (and I would LOVE to throw a Dave Weigel designed Ironhorse 7 into the mix for a third suspension design) - same fork, same shock etc. - let 'em rip their way down Whistler and may the best design win!
Well every v10 I've seen has a floater. A friend of mine who rides a Intense 5.5 like the bike but complains about brake jack. I figure the free has got the same ailment, at least to some extent.

I'll ask a friend of mine who recently got rid of his after only 2 months, I know he was unimpressed with the bike and recently bought a Demo 8 (another Hyped design???).

Regardless of the brake jack, without the introduction of stable platform shocks, the Outland VPP would have been the end of the design. IMO it's compromised suspension, braking and under accelleration so I would probably never buy one.

I guess I just follow the theory "If it works well don't fix it". My RFX is very effecient while clipped in and spinning the cranks and that with an AVY set up nice and plush.
 

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that's the spirit

t66 said:
Well every v10 I've seen has a floater. A friend of mine who rides a Intense 5.5 like the bike but complains about brake jack. I figure the free has got the same ailment, at least to some extent.

I'll ask a friend of mine who recently got rid of his after only 2 months, I know he was unimpressed with the bike and recently bought a Demo 8 (another Hyped design???).

Regardless of the brake jack, without the introduction of stable platform shocks, the Outland VPP would have been the end of the design. IMO it's compromised suspension, braking and under accelleration so I would probably never buy one.

I guess I just follow the theory "If it works well don't fix it". My RFX is very effecient while clipped in and spinning the cranks and that with an AVY set up nice and plush.
So why aren't we all still riding around on horses and pennyfarthings? Innovation doesn't happen if you just use what has worked in the past. As far as vpp bikes needing platform shocks to work well? There are quite a few people who ride Blurs w/o stable platform shocks, and a lot of the tests I've read on 5.5's say the bike would be plusher and it would not compromise pedalling w/ non stable platform shocks. If you want to throw DW link bikes in with the rest - DW advises to run 5th Elements w/ stable platform tuned to a minimum - the shocks aren't spec'd for their platform, it's for the tuning capabilities. There's also a guy on the IH board that swears by his Cane Creek shock on his Hollowpoint, and guess what? Cane Creek doesn't make a shock w/ stable platform. Sweeping generalizations are great - if you don't want to take the time to think about what you're saying... :rolleyes:
 

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t66 said:
Well every v10 I've seen has a floater. A friend of mine who rides a Intense 5.5 like the bike but complains about brake jack. I figure the free has got the same ailment, at least to some extent.

I'll ask a friend of mine who recently got rid of his after only 2 months, I know he was unimpressed with the bike and recently bought a Demo 8 (another Hyped design???).

Regardless of the brake jack, without the introduction of stable platform shocks, the Outland VPP would have been the end of the design. IMO it's compromised suspension, braking and under accelleration so I would probably never buy one.

I guess I just follow the theory "If it works well don't fix it". My RFX is very effecient while clipped in and spinning the cranks and that with an AVY set up nice and plush.
I have spent a lot of time on both designs with my previous RFX and current 5 Spot and VPFree. The Free's best attribute going down is also its worst going up steep technical, rocky climbs. That characteristic is the lengthening of the wheelbase and causing pedal feedback. It's not felt when going down and hitting square edge objects-it's superior to the Horst in this respect. Climbing wise that same characteristic causes feedback in the Free resulting in momentary hesitation in the pedal stroke and loss of power.
Both are excellent designs. Can I have the Horst going up and have the VPP going down-"Virtually"? hahah.
Brake jack! What's that? Not on these puppies.
 

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Waiting to exhale.
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Meanwhile, I'm riding a fully rigid bike with only my 2.5's for suspension and loving the fact that I don't have to worry about pedal bob, wheel travel direction, linkages, bearings, bushings, oil changes, push ind., spring weights, air pressures, pre-load, frame clearance, bottom out, sag, brake dive, floating disc's, pedal feed back, stantions getting scratched, seals busting, inertia this, motion control that, talas, nitrogen levels, lockouts, AM, DS, Settings, spv, LMNOP, xyz. :p
 
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