[Aquaholic]

The thread below by Andy N prompted me to share my thoughts on the TNT rear end. But, rather than share with you overall impressions (which really mirror what others have experienced), I'd like to just focus on climbing, for now.

I really wanted to get a few more weeks under my chamois before I posted this.

But since it is being discussed, below....here's my thoughts on the TNT rear end in regards to climbing.

Like AndyN, I use the Waterfall climb at Noble Canyon to gauge and compare any changes that I make to my bike. If I change frames, bar height, tires, shock settings, etc. this is the one climb where any backward moves on component choice or setup, will be readily apparent.

The waterfall climb is very steep and long. It is extremely loose. There is hardly any run in leading up to it and the tight righthander leading in, is filled with sharp pieces of granite which tend to scrub your speed or wash your front tire.

It goes steep immediately after the right turn. 1/3 of the way up you hit a series of steps and ledges. If you lose your momentum and stall, your rear tire will spin out and you're done. Dabbing to the right is not an option. You will freefall 50 feet into the canyon below. I've seen it happen plenty of times.

Most riders dismount and walk this section. They are probably the smart ones.

I've linked to Fooriders for 3 vids of the waterfall climb.

I've posted this video before and you've no doubt seen images of this climb many times.

http://www.fooriders.com/webmain/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=279397&t=55970

The first vid is my old red 5 spot with Horst Link. (Romic rear shock).

The second vid is my new 5Pack with the TNT (Fox DHXa) rear end.

The third vid is Rodman on a late model heckler (5th elephant rear shock).

Of note, is the way Rodman approaches this climb, he is in a low gear. Granny up front and 1 or two in the rear. So, he's hitting this climb in an extremely low gear, similar to what AndyN describes below. You can see him stall as soon as he hits the steep part and the rear wheel loses traction.

I think that attempting these types of climbs(like what AndyN depicts), in too low a gear, regardless of what type of rear end or bike you have, is going to hamper one's results.

So, I'll let the vids speak for themselves as far as comparing the TNT rear end to a Horst link.

It makes no difference to me whether I have the Horst link rear end or TNT rear end. The results are the same. I adapted to any nuances almost immediately with the TNT rear end.

 

[NoMud]

I'm a bit worried 'bout the heavy breathing on the TNT vid - the cameraman appreciating your climbing skills? ;-)

Looks they both got up it - bet you could do it on the heckler too.

 

[AndyN]

With all due respect, having never ridden or seen in person the hill which I used as a test, you can not make judgement as to what gear combo should be used.

Granny gear is the only option, there is no run in, and the hill is extremely steep. Cruise on out to NM and I'll show you in person.

 

[Aquaholic]

With all due respect, having never ridden or seen in person the hill which I used as a test, you can not make judgement as to what gear combo should be used.

Granny gear is the only option, there is no run in, and the hill is extremely steep. Cruise on out to NM and I'll show you in person.

Chill dude. I'm not making any judgments on your climbing prowess. Your post below just prompted me to share my thoughts.

"My tough climb can beat up your tough climb".

 

[AndyN]

Chill huh?

Exactly what in my reply gave you the impression that I was overheating?

You inferred that I was using an improper gear combo and that the correct one would have solved the problem.

Sorry, but that is not the case.

 

[tscheezy]

The most amazing thing is you did that with a Maxxis Larsen rear tire.

 

[Warp]

The most amazing thing is you did that with a Maxxis Larsen rear tire.

Big deep knobs are not very useful in situations like the last two pictures.

The other loose parts are not that steep (at least not as steep as the rest) and that tire should give just enough traction if you don't use the lowest one or two gears.

Obviously is not the tire for you if you mash the pedals rather than spin them.

At your homegrounds that tire is just not enough though.

 

[motoman711]

That is all fine and dandy... the real question is: can you do that on a rigid 29"er? SS?

 

[tscheezy]

I had an interesting experience recently. I sent my RP3 off my Spot to Push to get the Barny treatment, so I grabbed the DHX Coil out of a drawer, backed the BO out, dropped the BV as much as possible, put a 50#-too-light spring on, and went on my usual loop ride. On the descents the rear end rode harshly, braking or not. It hunted for traction, bucked and skipped. It did not want to track the terrain and seemed to deflect off the front side of small impacts and not sink as deeply on the backside as my weight came back down as I'm used to on my 6-Pack. The Spot is HL and the Pack is TNT.

Now if someone had told me I had been riding two Turners recently, one with HL and one with TNT, I would have immediately and unequivocally concluded that it MUST BE the Spot with the DHX Coil which was the faux-bar because the Pack/DHX Air was so much smoother on descents. Obviously the smoother descending bike MUST be the HL. The whole time I was coming down on the Spot I was thinking to myself "wow, this is what a faux bar is supposed to feel like" but there I was on a HL with a coil. Freaky.

 

[Renegade]

I would have trouble making that climb on a 400cc dirt bike!
You guys should lighten up. Enjoy the climb...or the walk up. Shred the descent. Enjoy a beer afterwards.

 

[Aquaholic]

"Caterpillar Feet"

The most amazing thing is you did that with a Maxxis Larsen rear tire.

Cheesemeister:

Indeed. For our SoCal terrain, the Larsen is a love/hate deal. It rolls quite well on the hardpack and works surprisingly well on climbs. At first glance, a Larsen TT looks to be the wrong choice for climbing in anything remotely loose. And mud? Fuggitaboutit. But mud's, not an issue out here.

I liken the Larsen TT to a caterpillar, with hundreds of little feet equaling the same contact patch as a tire like the Nevegal with big squishy knobs.

Either way, On many of the climbs like what I've depicted here, I've got to get a good run and have momentum aid me, or I'm toast. On those climbs that have little to no run in, I have to use a higher gear. Regardless of what tire I've tried, there are steep climbs here that in no way would I be able to pull off using my granny, Horst link, or TNT.

I was thinking more about this TNT rear end the other day. One thing that I think many people overlook is the fact that DT originally designed his bikes around non platform shocks, right?

Back then, the "state of the art" shock was the Vanilla RC.

Fast forward to 2005 and you have some pretty sophisticated rear shocks that make even a heavy, 6" plus travel, freeride beast, an adept climber.

It would be an interesting comparison to take one of these new TNT rear end equipped Turners and slap an old style Vanilla RC on it.

Of course the results would be predictable, but my point is perhaps with the new generation of shocks, any short comings of the TNT rear end, real or perceived, are not as apparent?

 

[Dusty Bottoms]

This is the perfect Turner thread

All of the basic elements of the perfect Turner thread are represented....

1. "real world" testing
2. followed closely by some techno-babble
3. light arguing ensues
4. random SS guy reminding everyone how "unique and gnarly" his clique is

Well done everyone! Carry on.

 

[Aquaholic]

That is all fine and dandy... the real question is: can you do that on a rigid 29"er? SS?

Hey! Who let you in here?

Get back in the 29er forum, SUCKA.

 

[Bikezilla]

Is this close?

...It would be an interesting comparison to take one of these new TNT rear end equipped Turners and slap an old style Vanilla RC on it....

The following is part of what was posted by DGC

Run #1 I started with the same set up as the last 5 rides, TNT rear end and the DHX-A. Then run #2 I switched from the DHX-A to the Vanilla. Man does this sucker bounce. At first, I could tell no difference in braking or climbing, except a lot of bounce climbing that shock, and buttery smooth when on straights. I thought I was onto something in running this shock though.
Then run #3, I decided to switch to the HL rear end keeping the Vanilla on. As I climbed up the downhill backwards, I thought for sure I had felt something clearly different this time, going up, over, down into a log water bar followed by a good sized sharp rock, same type features except one is round one is sharp. Many places on the trail like this. Felt like I went through it easier/smoother.....??? I redid that spot again. So I went back down and put the TNT rear end back on immediately, still keeping the Vanilla on.
Run #4 I retraced my tracks exactly. I was kinda bummed though this time, I could not feel the difference I had felt just 15 minutes before. ???. Redid the section again to be sure. felt the same. Now getting baffled.
(Later on, all I could come up with was i was now warmed up and climbed all of run #3 a little easier now being warmed up and no longer 38 degrees...!!!!)
Went down and changed yet again to the HL rear end, run #5..... Basically run #3 all over again. Back up to the same spot. Nope, no difference this time. Redid the same spot twice, still no difference. Back down for the last time, switched back to the TNT rear end and DHX-A this time.
Run #6, faster than run #5 felt. This time I could feel a shock difference. The DHX-A would not sag into its travel as far as the vanilla, and takes a little more force to get moving. With the vanilla I really thought I would feel something different since it was much easier to go deep into the travel where most of the difference is said to be. Run #6 all I could feel different was the more stable chassis with the DHX-A. Finally it was back down for some rest and food. Then it was time to do the entire ride as a loop=about 13 miles. Now riding entirely different terrain, the last 4.5 miles is decending, and into the same lower area as I spent the entire morning riding. Still no detectable change of any kind in braking or climbing, except for that run#3. I believe it was just being warmed up. Run #5 proved that.

 

[SSINGA]

All of the basic elements of the perfect Turner thread are represented....

1. "real world" testing
2. followed closely by some techno-babble
3. light arguing ensues
4. random SS guy reminding everyone how "unique and gnarly" his clique is

Well done everyone! Carry on.

Not quite - it is missing the post about beer, tequila or upgrading to new parts and it was missing the irrellavent "chime in" from a non-owner until you posted.

 

[motoman711]

Hey! Who let you in here?

Get back in the 29er forum, SUCKA.

Hey, I was just commenting on the fact that you are going to be riding one of these frankenbikes soon (HOPEFULLY VERY SOON).

Beside, I used to ride HL before I went rigid.

 

[Renegade]

Not quite - it is missing the post about beer, tequila or upgrading to new parts and it was missing the irrellavent "chime in" from a non-owner until you posted.

It's also missing cleavage, or hard bodied, smooth, female flesh of some sort, preferably human!

 

[Aquaholic]

The following is part of what was posted by DGC

QUOTE]

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad! Now how'd I miss that?

OK, now czech this out....Why is it that you can take your bike out on a ride.... The same ride that you've done a kajillion times before....the setup is identical, the conditions are identical, but yet the bike underneath you feels like a totally different beast?

Howjusplain that?

 

[Renegade]

..Why is it that you can take your bike out on a ride.... The same ride that you've done a kajillion times before....the setup is identical, the conditions are identical, but yet the bike underneath you feels like a totally different beast?

Howjusplain that?

You have multiple personalities within you. Each one senses and interprets input from the real world differently. You are majorly screwed up. You need help.

I, on the other hand, am just fine, thank you.

 

[Bob the Wheelbuilder]

This is the problem with using previous world champions in another sport do the testing. I'm sure aquaholic will be able to clean this climb on his rigid 29er, but that doesn't mean anyone else will be able to get his results.

When I can best demonstrate a difference between bikes it is when I'm tired and spinning in my granny gear and the climb is one that challenges me: one that I might not make every time with my "gold standard" bike. There are a lot of those around here, but it is probably me more than the climbs.

Riding with my Blur when I was fresh I could power up climbs by using a bigger gear and squirting forward when I had traction and soft pedaling a little when I did not. Technique and strength can make up for a lesser bike on these kind of tough climbs. What aquaholic needs to do is find a climb so heinous he can only make it half the time with his current bike. Problem is, such a climb may not exist.