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titanium bits

2932 Views 31 Replies 15 Participants Last post by bad mechanic, May 9, 2011

Shuteye

Discussion Starter · Feb 21, 2011 (Edited)

I recently got my bike built up to where I now like all components on it. But I can't resist tinkering. Now I'm starting to consider titanium hardware - such as ti bolts on my calipers, brake adapters, levers etc. I know I would need to swap out a lot of bolts to make a significant weight difference. That's cool, cause I can buy different kits, one at a time and gradually swap out. I don't want to consider it if I am just going to create problems down the road (trail?) when I need to perform repairs.

Is there a problem with titanium seizing, and are the Chinese ti bits that you can purchase on eBay of decent quality? I searched this but didn't come with a specific thread.

I didn't post this on Weight Weenies because I think info there would be biased toward the weight factor without regard to future wrenching. If I get enough feedback telling me to stay with steel I'll just forget all about this.

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

AZ

· #2 · Feb 21, 2011

Just make sure to use Never Seize during assembly .

ChainChain

· #3 · Feb 21, 2011

I was thinking about swapping some bolts in particular the rotor bolts and getting some lighter rotors. I found a listing for for 11 used rotor bolts on ebay. Where was the 12th? I decided I needed to take a breather and chillout about saving 50g. It didn't seem like it would be worth the hassle of digging out one sheared bolt.

sasquatch rides a SS

· #4 · Feb 21, 2011

I've heard that Ti rotor bolts break very easily. Ti is light but very brittle, to me it's not worth the expense or time involved. Just ride you bike and have fun.

Shuteye

Discussion Starter · #5 · Feb 22, 2011

sasquatch rides a SS said:
Just ride you bike and have fun.

I think you're right.

nov0798

· #6 · Feb 22, 2011

Yea I dont see any value in Ti parts, other than bling. Dont think youll ever notice a difference in weight other than your wallet.

Shuteye

Discussion Starter · #7 · Feb 22, 2011

nov0798 said:
Yea I dont see any value in Ti parts, other than bling. Dont think youll ever notice a difference in weight other than your wallet.

That's why I posted this in Tooltime instead of Weight Weenies - to get unbiased opinions. Someone may still chime in with ti is cool, but I want to hear all sides. It is not just about being light (I'm 6 lb overweight

)

On the other hand, if I could shed 1/2 lb off my bike without compromise, that would be cool too.

customfab

· #8 · Feb 22, 2011

Ti fasteners are very reliable if they are forged like steel bolts. Almost all of the TI fasteners you will find for bicycle applications are machined though and do not have the needed strength. If you knew what forged Ti fasteners cost you wouldn't have even thought about it.

Shuteye

Discussion Starter · #9 · Feb 22, 2011 (Edited)

customfab said:
Ti fasteners are very reliable if they are forged like steel bolts. Almost all of the TI fasteners you will find for bicycle applications are machined though and do not have the needed strength. If you knew what forged Ti fasteners cost you wouldn't have even thought about it.

Very interesting! That limits ti fasteners to brake lever and shifter clamps, and a few other small fasteners which undergo minimal shear stress. In that case, why bother? That's also in line with reports of ti pedal spindles shearing.

jtmartino

· #10 · Feb 22, 2011

Shuteye said:
Very interesting! That limits ti fasteners to brake lever and shifter clamps, and a few other small fasteners which undergo minimal shear stress. In that case, why bother? That's also in line with reports of ti pedal spindles shearing.

Exactly, why bother? It's an aesthetic thing more than a performance item, in most cases. Although I do like the subtle look of ti in different areas...

Speaking of Ti, I just bought a bike that had Ti spindles on the Eggbeater pedals. One of the spindles had seized to the crank, and the previous owner had rounded out the flats on the inside of the spindle with a hex wrench. What a tremendous PITA it was to remove that thing...the spindle still has the hex-shaped drill bit that I jammed into it to provide enough grip to remove the pedal...

customfab

· #11 · Feb 22, 2011

jtmartino said:
Speaking of Ti, I just bought a bike that had Ti spindles on the Eggbeater pedals. One of the spindles had seized to the crank, and the previous owner had rounded out the flats on the inside of the spindle with a hex wrench. What a tremendous PITA it was to remove that thing...the spindle still has the hex-shaped drill bit that I jammed into it to provide enough grip to remove the pedal...

best thing to ever happen to that pedal!

Shuteye

Discussion Starter · #12 · Feb 22, 2011 (Edited)

customfab said:
best thing to ever happen to that pedal!

Snorted my drink

Joza

· #13 · Feb 23, 2011

Well, I would like to contribute as well.
As far as my experience with Ti hardware goes, I'm more than satisfied with it. The weight is between Al and steel and strenght is more likely to steel. It doesn't corrode and looks awesome. Btw, I don't like Al screws because of their week heads - I usually end up with a messed up allen hed - never happened to Ti ones.
And about the forged vs. fabricated srews - I don't think that forged are necessarily stronger. The fabricated ones are made out of solid blok that someone CNC (or whatever) to the designated shape. So if the solid blok is OK, than the srew should be OK as well. I have experienced a lot of steel bolts that were 'forged-made' broken like nothing - drilling was needed to get them out, this luckily never happened to mine fabricated Ti ones (so far).
And finally to the eBay Ti srews/bolts, they are fine

And for a reasonable prizes. I have swapped all the steel bolts to Ti, except chainring ones - Al. I'm a bit of a weight weenie - true that, but my bike is well under 2000USD and around 9kg (hard tail).
Oh, so many words, I hope I didn't bore you to death.

Edit: And the seizing - you should use some anti-seiz. Same thing applies far all bolts (at least for me).

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Shuteye

Discussion Starter · #14 · Feb 23, 2011

Joza said:
Oh, so many words, I hope I didn't bore you to death.

Not bored at all, thanks for chiming in - the first positive words in favor of extensive ti use. I see a metallurgy debate brewing, however, regarding forged vs machined. I haven't googled it, but remember reading something about molecular (or atomic?) alignment when forging.

bad mechanic

· #15 · Feb 23, 2011

What you want are titanium bolts with rolled threads and not cut threads. Cut threads are cheaper to make, but have a tendency to break. A good, reliable source of titanium bolts is:
http://www.titaniumfasteners.com/shop/

For maximum weight savings buy the taper head bolts.

Personally, I know I won't feel the weight of the titanium bolts I've installed, but I like knowing I've optimized a part as much as I can.

Additionally, I use aluminum bolts in select places like brake lever clamps.

mtnbiker4life

· #16 · Feb 23, 2011

Shuteye said:
Is there a problem with titanium seizing, and are the Chinese ti bits that you can purchase on eBay of decent quality? I searched this but didn't come with a specific thread.

99% of the Ti fasteners listed on ebay are made from CP Grade X which is not worth the headache. Buyer beware.......seizing will be the least of your problems.

Shuteye

Discussion Starter · #17 · Feb 26, 2011

mtnbiker4life said:
99% of the Ti fasteners listed on ebay are made from CP Grade X which is not worth the headache. Buyer beware.......seizing will be the least of your problems.

Duly noted. Thanks! If I have to classify, I ride all mountain - 29 lb, 5" travel with plenty of tools and water. Considering all the input on this thread, I think future ti is out for me unless supplied by the manufacturer with an upgrade component I purchase.

I have a Sandvik ti hardtail frameset hanging in my garage which I may build up someday into a light cross country ride. Maybe then I'll revisit ti fasteners.

mtb143

· #18 · Feb 28, 2011

Shuteye said:
Someone may still chime in with ti is cool...

Ti is cool. And

"Bow ties are cool." - Dr. Who

customfab

· #19 · Feb 28, 2011

Joza said:
Well, I would like to contribute as well.
As far as my experience with Ti hardware goes, I'm more than satisfied with it. The weight is between Al and steel and strenght is more likely to steel. It doesn't corrode and looks awesome. Btw, I don't like Al screws because of their week heads - I usually end up with a messed up allen hed - never happened to Ti ones.
And about the forged vs. fabricated srews - I don't think that forged are necessarily stronger. The fabricated ones are made out of solid blok that someone CNC (or whatever) to the designated shape. So if the solid blok is OK, than the srew should be OK as well. I have experienced a lot of steel bolts that were 'forged-made' broken like nothing - drilling was needed to get them out, this luckily never happened to mine fabricated Ti ones (so far).

Metal doesn't work like that skipper. There are grain structures to worry about and that is pretty complex stuff that I really only understand the basics of. What you need to understand is that a forging orients the grain in an ideal way. When you machine something from a billet (solid chunk) you disrupt this grain structure and wind up with a weaker part. That part may still be strong enough but it is a compromise.

Fabricate is another word for manufacture or to make something. You could fabricate a forged fastener as well as a CNC'd one. You could also fabricate a fastener with a file if you really wanted to.

mtnbiker4life

· #20 · Feb 28, 2011

Joza said:
Well, I would like to contribute as well.
As far as my experience with Ti hardware goes, I'm more than satisfied with it. The weight is between Al and steel and strenght is more likely to steel. It doesn't corrode and looks awesome. Btw, I don't like Al screws because of their week heads - I usually end up with a messed up allen hed - never happened to Ti ones.
And about the forged vs. fabricated srews - I don't think that forged are necessarily stronger. The fabricated ones are made out of solid blok that someone CNC (or whatever) to the designated shape. So if the solid blok is OK, than the srew should be OK as well. I have experienced a lot of steel bolts that were 'forged-made' broken like nothing - drilling was needed to get them out, this luckily never happened to mine fabricated Ti ones (so far).
And finally to the eBay Ti srews/bolts, they are fine And for a reasonable prizes. I have swapped all the steel bolts to Ti, except chainring ones - Al. I'm a bit of a weight weenie - true that, but my bike is well under 2000USD and around 9kg (hard tail).
Oh, so many words, I hope I didn't bore you to death.

Edit: And the seizing - you should use some anti-seiz. Same thing applies far all bolts (at least for me).

It's obvious by the information in your post that you do not have even the basic knowledge of material science. By all means I am no expert, meaning my ME degree is not focused on material science but I know enough to know you're mislead.

Their are many different grades that fall under the generic name "titanium". The screws that I have researched on ebay and other sites are made from "CP" Titanium which I would not put on my bike, car, or motorcycle. These screws are not a direct replacement to a quality graded steel or stainless steel fastener.

http://www.matweb.com/search/QuickText.aspx?SearchText=cp titanium

http://www.matweb.com/search/QuickText.aspx?SearchText=3Al 2.5V titanium

Do some research on how fasteners are made. Most all mass produced screws are forged as blanks then the threads are rolled and the head features are applied (hex, slot, or Torx...blah blah blah). Just so you know rolled threads are much stronger then machine cut threads. The rolling process is a cold forming process.

Here are some terms you need to understand when replacing all your steel fasteners with Titanium fasteners. Then think about how this fastener and it's assembly is going to be loaded, and its operating environment

Hardness
Tensile Strength, Ultimate
Tensile Strength, Yield
Elongation at Break
Compressive Yield Strength
Notched Tensile Strength
Charpy Impact
Fatigue Strength
Fracture Toughness
Shear Modulus

.

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