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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
As I indicated in one of my recent posts the great state of Pennsylvania was sending some of their best NOD's to try out some of Sedona's World Class trails. One of the newest additions to the social trail scene is Kurt.

Kirk flew in to Phoenix last night and he got up this morning at 3:30 am to head out for Sedona to do an early morning ride. Due to the expected warm temperatures the local talent met up at 6:45 am to get and early start.

Kirk was raring to go and as usual I got my butt kicked on the uphill segment. When we got to the highpoint we took a break on one of the most beautiful spots in Sedona. The wind was calm and there was a huge cumulus cloud blocking the sun. The conditions were PERFECT.

On the ride out to the saddle I had dabbed three times and I was really concerned doing the upcoming section. Due to my concern, I decided that every rider was on their own and if I didn't dab I wasn't going to stop until I got to the easy slickrock section.

As it turned up my local buddy and I cleaned the super techie section and the Pennsylvania gentlemen got to know that section more intimately. As they exited on the slickrock they indicated that section was more then they were use to back home.

As we rode out to the really cool wash section the newbies got more acclimated with the slickrock and they felt more comfortable with the diversity of the riding. When we dropped into the wash I showed the gun nuts the line across the waterfall. Attached is a picture of Kirk doing the rollin PERFECTLY.

At that point I headed out to the slot drop, while the rest of the group followed close behind. We rode out Lavitra since several of us had ridden Brew Pub recently. When we came to the scary ass drop section we all got off the bikes to check it out. If there were rocks or tree limbs in the trail the consequences could be dire.

There was no way you could stop on this section of trail it is way too steep and way to loose this time of year. After checking it out two of us decided it was OK to ride. As you can see from my buddies picture he was in a semi-controlled slide doing the drop. It was so cool watching him making it successfully. It would not have been cool having him go to Father's Day lunch with a scarred up body.

The rest of the ride went great and once again we hit BK for a Whopper Jr. and ten glasses of ice water for me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
bobdole said:
Arent we not supposed to ride on social trails?
Bob:

If we weren't supposed to ride social trails, I for one certainly wouldn't be riding them. Social trails serve a number of special purposes:

They take the pressure off the system trails.

They demonstrate proper trail design to mitigate trail erosion.

They increase tourism potential.

They allow wildlife to move more efficiently between feeding zones.

They give the Westerners a broader trail system to offer their current and future membership. This in turn promotes more excercise and socializing to improve health and happiness.

The easier social trails give lesser skilled riders a chance to ride a trail that doesn't have manmade obstacles that could cause serious injury.

They allow equestrians a broader trail network.

They give the riding community broader trail network to improve their riding skills and improve their day-to-day health. Obesity is rampant in the US and having a broad network of trails that are fun to ride increases the chances people will get out and ride rather then spending their free time stuffing their faces with junk food.

Hope that helps,

Doc
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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bobdole said:
But these are unofficial and by the forest services definition, illegal, correct?
Depends on which forest, up in Flagstaff the position is that it's not illegal to ride them, it's illegal to build them, because otherwise you're just riding "trails", the point though where it becomes less clear is when the trail is not well defined and you're trail-blazing and building the trail, and that's illegal.

Not a fan of the Sedona "off-system" trails though, most of sedona is short ups and downs, usually steep, but with little elevation gain or loss, so on the type of bike that can actually handle the "stunts", you end up pretty beat by relatively short rides. That of course is relative to what you usually ride. I much prefer a big crazy climb with a big crazy payoff, not little steep 10 foot climbs and chutes, which is what a lot of sedona is. It's not like they're cutting trails from the top of the mesas/plateu down to Sedona, and more of the same isn't exactly interesting to me.
 

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Jayem said:
Depends on which forest, up in Flagstaff the position is that it's not illegal to ride them, it's illegal to build them, because otherwise you're just riding "trails", the point though where it becomes less clear is when the trail is not well defined and you're trail-blazing and building the trail, and that's illegal.

Not a fan of the Sedona "off-system" trails though, most of sedona is short ups and downs, usually steep, but with little elevation gain or loss, so on the type of bike that can actually handle the "stunts", you end up pretty beat by relatively short rides. That of course is relative to what you usually ride. I much prefer a big crazy climb with a big crazy payoff, not little steep 10 foot climbs and chutes, which is what a lot of sedona is.
quoted for truth.

Makes sense on the "riding is cool building is bad"...but when you think of it, riding them does "build" them.
 

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bobdole said:
quoted for truth.

Makes sense on the "riding is cool building is bad"...but when you think of it, riding them does "build" them.
The idea is that there are places (like Flagstaff, or Llama trail in Sedona) where the off-system trails are well established and not some trail-blazing brush-fest, they are trails that were well built and very "established", and obviously they slipped through the Forest Services radar. The Forest Service is obviously not trying to get people into trouble for riding what exists, but they are trying to control what is currently happening, which is difficult with people like Traildoc running around and building trails as they see fit.

So while the Forest Service would not like to see new trails popping up everywhere, people had been riding Llama trail in Sedona for years, making it a very worn in and well-established route. It's not a situation where someone went in during the night with a machete and a pick and then the next day the Forest Service was calling it an "official route".
 

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I am Walt
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Jayem said:
Depends on which forest, up in Flagstaff the position is that it's not illegal to ride them, it's illegal to build them, because otherwise you're just riding "trails", the point though where it becomes less clear is when the trail is not well defined and you're trail-blazing and building the trail, and that's illegal.
That made me think of this:
Yeah, it's legal, but it ain't a hundred percent legal. I mean, you can't walk into a restaurant, roll a joint and start puffin' away. You're only supposed to smoke in your home or certain designated places. It breaks down like this: it's legal to buy it, it's legal to own it, and, if you're the proprietor of a hash bar, it's legal to sell it. It's legal to carry it, but that doesn't really matter 'cause - get a load of this - if you get stopped by the cops in amsterdam, it's illegal for them to search you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
bobdole said:
quoted for truth.

Makes sense on the "riding is cool building is bad"...but when you think of it, riding them does "build" them.
Bob:

"Let the Games Begin"

So what's you point? That riding a trail is an efficient way of building it? It can be if the routing is according to IMBA guidelines. The important part is that the routing is done correctly. For the record my gig is trail improvements not building illegal trails that are unsustainable.

I have built a number of system trails in various different locations that 1,000's have ridden and hopefully will still be riding when I am long gone. Those projects I am hopeful will give future generations a reason to get out and do a fun ride.

Fortunately, we all aren't like Jayem who seems to be extremely unhappy about how much Sedona has to offer the extremely skilled mountain biker. Prescott has some good riding, but I have never heard of people from all over the world say I am going to Prescott, AZ to spend a week of mountain biking.

Maybe I am wrong, it would be nice if he could set the record straight with some examples of rides he has done with foreigners or people from other parts of the US more than a 1,500 miles away who have traveled to Prescott to do a weeks worth of great riding. I look forward to past and future posts and pictures.

There is a group of Jayem want-a-bees out there that follow in lock step with his montra, so I would expect them to provide their point of view.in the near future :) .
 

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traildoc said:
Bob:

"Let the Games Begin"

So what's you point? That riding a trail is an efficient way of building it? It can be if the routing is according to IMBA guidelines. The important part is that the routing is done correctly. For the record my gig is trail improvements not building illegal trails that are unsustainable.

I have built a number of system trails in various different locations that 1,000's have ridden and hopefully will still be riding when I am long gone. Those projects I am hopeful will give future generations a reason to get out and do a fun ride.

Fortunately, we all aren't like Jayem who seems to be extremely unhappy about how much Sedona has to offer the extremely skilled mountain biker. Prescott has some good riding, but I have never heard of people from all over the world say I am going to Prescott, AZ to spend a week of mountain biking.

Maybe I am wrong, it would be nice if he could set the record straight with some examples of rides he has done with foreigners or people from other parts of the US more than a 1,500 miles away who have traveled to Prescott to do a weeks worth of great riding. I look forward to past and future posts and pictures.

There is a group of Jayem want-a-bees out there that follow in lock step with his montra, so I would expect them to provide their point of view.in the near future :) .
So, Prescott isn't as good as Sedona because foreigners dont come here?
 

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Schooled. Schooled in tech riding by a couple of geezers who should be content riding Bell Rock Freeway and watching the D'backs on HD.

Just to clarify, Kirk (not Kurt) came in from Pa. I emigrated from Pa 3 years ago today to Cottonwood. Credit advancing senility for traildoc not getting the details correct.

Jayem, have you been on these trails that have been talked about? The ride up the dirt road is necessary if you avoid shuttling but the rest of the ride is pretty entertaining. The elevation drop from the Mitten ridge saddle to the creek is a decent amount. This riding isn't north shore jumps and ramps bombing, it's bike control and technique on fairly risky steep stuff. Certainly not for everybody.

Bobdole, I just became aware of some pretty good trails. The FS rules are illegal to build, not illegal to ride. So, continue to ride the same old that's as Jayem described or ride some good stuff that's over my skill level? Easy answer.
 

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azjeff said:
Jayem, have you been on these trails that have been talked about? The ride up the dirt road is necessary if you avoid shuttling but the rest of the ride is pretty entertaining. The elevation drop from the Mitten ridge saddle to the creek is a decent amount. This riding isn't north shore jumps and ramps bombing, it's bike control and technique on fairly risky steep stuff. Certainly not for everybody.
.
You're kidding right?

You realize there's TRAIL that goes all the way up in the vicinity of that "road"? (why do people have a hard-on for riding up roads?) BTW, that's the one ride in sedona that has a little bit of vertical, but I don't see it as being worth it with Flag nearby. Private Reserve, Steel Reserve, and others, all in the pines and cool temps, not that Damifino isn't good, but again, just not worth it. I guess the thing is that I know where to find trails that are challenging as far as skill is concerned, and they have a lot of vertical. I can have my cake and eat it too.

I did ride up that road a few times on a DH bike, but a DH bike was overkill in sedona, especially because you have a lot of steep uphill (world class?) sections with just about any ride there. With the correct bike, you can ride all of that terrain and ride up the trails just fine. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what they put the trails there for.

Ride up the road = fail, unless you're doing it on a 50lb DH rig, but even then it's dumb IMO. I know, I've done it.
 

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traildoc said:
Fortunately, we all aren't like Jayem who seems to be extremely unhappy about how much Sedona has to offer the extremely skilled mountain biker. Prescott has some good riding, but I have never heard of people from all over the world say I am going to Prescott, AZ to spend a week of mountain biking..
Nor do I try to push Prescott as some sort of MTB-mecca on par with the ones that I've ridden. That doesn't mean that I don't like and ride trails here, but it also means that I'm not out to try and push Prescott trails as "world class" or something.
 

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Jayem said:
You're kidding right?

You realize there's TRAIL that goes all the way up in the vicinity of that "road"? (why do people have a hard-on for riding up roads?) BTW, that's the one ride in sedona that has a little bit of vertical, but I don't see it as being worth it with Flag nearby. Private Reserve, Steel Reserve, and others, all in the pines and cool temps, not that Damifino isn't good, but again, just not worth it. I guess the thing is that I know where to find trails that are challenging as far as skill is concerned, and they have a lot of vertical. I can have my cake and eat it too.

I did ride up that road a few times on a DH bike, but a DH bike was overkill in sedona, especially because you have a lot of steep uphill (world class?) sections with just about any ride there. With the correct bike, you can ride all of that terrain and ride up the trails just fine. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what they put the trails there for.

Ride up the road = fail, unless you're doing it on a 50lb DH rig, but even then it's dumb IMO. I know, I've done it.
I'm from the school of "ride it all" which I think is what you're saying. I've ridden the trail and agree about riding up the road but they both end at the same place and the trail isn't that interesting. Having to ride some dirt road doesn't ruin the day for me. I ride a newer Stumpjumper FSR that goes up and down pretty well and seems suited for the riding around here.

If you find Damfino too easy I highly respect your skills. I'm just finding these other trails and find that my Pa woods riding skills need to be turned up a notch or 3 for the more challenging stuff here. Hope to ride with you sometime.
 

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azjeff said:
I'm from the school of "ride it all" which I think is what you're saying. I've ridden the trail and agree about riding up the road but they both end at the same place and the trail isn't that interesting. Having to ride some dirt road doesn't ruin the day for me. I ride a newer Stumpjumper FSR that goes up and down pretty well and seems suited for the riding around here.

If you find Damfino too easy I highly respect your skills. I'm just finding these other trails and find that my Pa woods riding skills need to be turned up a notch or 3 for the more challenging stuff here. Hope to ride with you sometime.
Cool, enjoy any challenge that you find, that's definitely the way to go.
 

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waltaz said:
That made me think of this:
Yeah, it's legal, but it ain't a hundred percent legal. I mean, you can't walk into a restaurant, roll a joint and start puffin' away. You're only supposed to smoke in your home or certain designated places. It breaks down like this: it's legal to buy it, it's legal to own it, and, if you're the proprietor of a hash bar, it's legal to sell it. It's legal to carry it, but that doesn't really matter 'cause - get a load of this - if you get stopped by the cops in amsterdam, it's illegal for them to search you.
"Oh man, I'm going, that's all there is to it. I'm ****ing going!"
 

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I am personally thankful that so many "Social" trails have been created. Those of you that have ridden DH in Flag should be grateful that some motivated people took action and created the best riding scene in the state of AZ. The "Social" trails were all cleared one month before the Forest Circus finally got off their tails and cleared off all the downed timber that was on the system trails. Without these individuals, riding in N.AZ would suck in my opinion, might as well ride a 29 on Shultz Creek, or Broken Arrow. So don't hate, go ride your bike!!!:madman: :madman: :madman: :madman:
 

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bobdole said:
But these are unofficial and by the forest services definition, illegal, correct?
It's only illegal if you're not riding on an "established" trail. Also, building trail on forest land is illegal.

Don't be scared off by the "social trail" designation. If you weren't the one who built it, and if it's on public land, there's nothing illegal about riding them.

p.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Paul B said:
Don't be scared off by the "social trail" designation. If you weren't the one who built it, and if it's on public land, there's nothing illegal about riding them. p.
Paul:

I am curious if you have any experience with the laws on doing trail improvemnts to system trails. Since the FS is in a funding crisis they don't seem to have the manpower to maintain their system trails as well as they would like to. I have heard that they are using volunteer groups to help maintain some trails in the Bell Rock area, but I don't think they have volunteer groups out of that area.

If a multi-use system trail has an uphill segment that only 1% of local riders can ride w/o getting off their bike does the FS really care if a well thought out trail improvement is done to make it barely ridable by 20% of non-locals?

Do you have any experience with kind of situation?

Doc
 

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trailpimp

Its great that you know how to properly build a trail. Unfortunately not all trail moles are of your caliber. And its not clear how much of what your doing is "building" rather than improving.

We have a few retireires around the Catalinas that have taken to "leaving their legacy" for others to enjoy. The result is several badly constructed fall-line trails some passing through sensitive areas. One is a MTBer and several are hikers. Most people here, particularly the locals, are not pleased with whats going on. Unfortunately the retireies have far more time on their hands. Another point of bitterness is that several are out of staters that know nothing of desert ecology.

I love your enthusiansm and dig the shot demonstarting your geezer riding prowess. And its great that a non-local can cash in on your trail knowledge that you freely share. But, blogging every tourist visit, some apparently without consent, and the world classness of the trails in scenic Sedona is diluting your message, particularly in the Arizona (locals) forum.

Sedona is a beautiful place, just too much crystal power and votex suction tourism going on up there for my liking. The riding is great up there, just not the bomb for most of us Arizonans.

IMBA guidelines are guidelines! Not the law. Sadly most folks that get IMBA trained miss that point and try and build the IMBA approved flagship trail as pictured in the IMBA book. I agree with you that sustainability is the key, not blind adherance to the IMBA guidlines. But I believe IMBA states that as well.

FYI traildoc: the two ton rock was the size of a mini grand piano.

JUST SAY NO TO SANITIZATION, particularly in the name of tourism!!!!!!!!!
 
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