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EAT MORE GRIME
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
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so, if you're squatting low and holding a dumbell up with your other leg (which will need to be bent in a leg curl because of proximity to the floor) while you extend one leg in a press, how do you do a leg curl simultaneous with a leg press when the leg holding the dumbell is already curled to hold the dumbell off the floor?
omfg you are gaslighting again. my leg is STRAIGHT in front of me in the air under quite a load. I can't keep it there for long 20lbs on my foot is hard. I am using my hand to balance myself, I am not that good at trying to prove your wacked theory on nervous system control regarding leg muscles

the one leg I am squatting down on is bent but....FFS get over it will ya


nope, that does it. my head exploded. I've popped, bled out. stabbed myself. done.


back to pedal scooping....I cannot ollie, hop, pop, chop, pork, unless I am clipped in. never learned -proper technique- either toeclips or clip pedals I learned the wrong way and will just have to be clipped in for all my bouncin around
 

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Bicyclochondriac.
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agreed 100%. unweighting your upward foot is the most efficient, not concentrating on pulling up, which does nothing more than rob your downstroke of power.
Wut?

No, it does not rob your down-stroke of power. It ADDS to the total power output. Think about it: when you do a 2 legged leg press with a single sled, is one leg robbing the other of power? No, it is adding to it.

I will grant that people do not actually pull up nearly as much as most think they do (or at all in many cases) - and those who have trained themselves to so on a regular basis are probably wasting their time. Most of the time they are simply unweighting the pedal.... which adds to the net power being delivered (because the downstroke leg is not having to lift up the dead weight of the upstroke leg).

Pulling up (with or without pushing on the down-stroke) is also not more efficient, if by "efficient" we mean energy in vs energy out. This is why we naturally don't bother doing it most (if not all) of the time.

However, pushing the downstroke while pulling the upstroke is totally doable and I don't know where you are getting that it is not. And it does net more power (as well as more exertion). For all out efforts (such as a quick sprint acceleration), it simply allows you to let more muscles contribute to the effort. Is it more efficient? No. I think I have read that it may even be less so. But it does deliver more power. Just like doing a two legged leg press lets you deliver more power than a one legged one. Or why you can curl more weight with two arms than one arm.

I think you may be confusing the question of CAN we do it with SHOULD we be doing it. That is a different discussion.

For the reasons above, I almost never use clipless on my gravel/road bike anymore.
 

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Get an Oval CR and all your pedaling woes will be fixed!!

/Fin

Sent from my Asus Rog 3
 

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I've been enjoying Dylan Johnsons videos lately. He's a mountain bike/gravel endurance athlete and cycling coach. And he does science based videos, where he reviews a pretty good cross section of the actual research articles related to the topic, as well as provide the actual links to the studies if you want to go try to interpret them yourself.

He did one on the topic of flats vs clipless pedals, which, I think relates to the current conversation. It goes into their relative efficiency, with the premise being that clipless pedals would be more efficient, because you can pull up on the upstroke. The short version, is that current research doesn't show a difference between flats and clipless in terms of power output, and they found that even a group of 40 elite level cyclists didn't ever really pull up on the pedals. And whats more, in the research when people were specifically told to pull up, their efficiency actually went down (the smaller muscles aren't as efficient).

So yeah, you totally can pull up on the pedals if you're clipped in. It just doesn't seem to be a super worthwhile thing to do, most of the time, and they found that most people really aren't doing it (on avg, in their studies). But that the studies haven't been done in maybe the more mountain bike style of "cleaning a steep/punchy tech climb".

Here is the video.

Also, thanks to the OP for the link. I'd forgotten to check Jeffs videos for a bit. I enjoyed that one.
 

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Formerly of Kent
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I've been enjoying Dylan Johnsons videos lately. He's a mountain bike/gravel endurance athlete and cycling coach. And he does science based videos, where he reviews a pretty good cross section of the actual research articles related to the topic, as well as provide the actual links to the studies if you want to go try to interpret them yourself.

He did one on the topic of flats vs clipless pedals, which, I think relates to the current conversation. It goes into their relative efficiency, with the premise being that clipless pedals would be more efficient, because you can pull up on the upstroke. The short version, is that current research doesn't show a difference between flats and clipless in terms of power output, and they found that even a group of 40 elite level cyclists didn't ever really pull up on the pedals. And whats more, in the research when people were specifically told to pull up, their efficiency actually went down (the smaller muscles aren't as efficient).

So yeah, you totally can pull up on the pedals if you're clipped in. It just doesn't seem to be a super worthwhile thing to do, most of the time, and they found that most people really aren't doing it (on avg, in their studies). But that the studies haven't been done in maybe the more mountain bike style of "cleaning a steep/punchy tech climb".

Here is the video.

Also, thanks to the OP for the link. I'd forgotten to check Jeffs videos for a bit. I enjoyed that one.

The problem with saying “less efficient” is that when I’m actively pulling up, I don’t give a **** about efficiency. I’m trying to make it up a super steep climb without falling over or having to dismount. I’m after maximum power at those times. Not maximum efficiency.

If I was after maximum efficiency I’d trundle around at 200w all day. I don’t do that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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The problem with saying “less efficient” is that when I’m actively pulling up, I don’t give a **** about efficiency. I’m trying to make it up a super steep climb without falling over or having to dismount. I’m after maximum power at those times. Not maximum efficiency.

If I was after maximum efficiency I’d trundle around at 200w all day. I don’t do that.


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Totally agree. The research is only as good as what they were actually testing, which the video specifically mentions (and, I tried to allude to), and also calls out that more research in the sprinting/maximal power output side of things is needed.

Just was saying where the research that we do have is right now, and why some people are saying "clipless pedals don't do anything".
 

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lots of myths around the pedals. like clips allowing you to push down and pull up at the same time while pedaling. it's not possible for your body to concentrate on pushing and pulling in circles at the same time. it's only one or the other....
I dont know enough about physiology to comment onn this exact claim but i can say as someone who has been riding 6” travel almost 40lb bikes since 2001 there is a learned skill in applying as even power input as possible throughout your pedal stroke to minimize pedaling input on bikes with poor kinematics. This can be done with either flats or clips and sure technique can make up for the lack of attachment on flats. But clips make it a lot easier to balance power input. Personally i ride bmx and trials on flats and can really toss the bike around without having my feet attached, but am not as good with flats on trail rides.

also something to consider. In the lowest traction situations I encounter (steep climbs in loosely packed snow on my fat bike) i focus more on pulling upduring my pedal stroke than pushing down. somehow this helps a lot, if i was pedal mashing on downward strokes i would surely wash out. This is not really related to previous point, just another interesting observation.
 

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also something to consider. In the lowest traction situations I encounter (steep climbs in loosely packed snow on my fat bike) i focus more on pulling upduring my pedal stroke than pushing down. somehow this helps a lot, if i was pedal mashing on downward strokes i would surely wash out.
This is interesting now that I think about it. Do you think pulling up is applying the power at a lower level, or rather that the idea of "pulling up" is acting as a limiter to the down stroke and keeping torque in check? I am full time on flats now, including in the winter on the fatty, and have to control torque as well. I never really thought about it until now but in those situations I do focus more on the upwards foot than downwards, but I am obviously not "pulling up" in a proper sense on the flats.
 

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Bicyclochondriac.
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The problem with saying “less efficient” is that when I’m actively pulling up, I don’t give a **** about efficiency. I’m trying to make it up a super steep climb without falling over or having to dismount. I’m after maximum power at those times. Not maximum efficiency.

If I was after maximum efficiency I’d trundle around at 200w all day. I don’t do that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Right. I think that people too often confuse power and efficiency in these discussions. Sometimes efficiency is more important, sometimes power is.
 

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Bicyclochondriac.
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I dont know enough about physiology to comment onn this exact claim but i can say as someone who has been riding 6” travel almost 40lb bikes since 2001 there is a learned skill in applying as even power input as possible throughout your pedal stroke to minimize pedaling input on bikes with poor kinematics. This can be done with either flats or clips and sure technique can make up for the lack of attachment on flats. But clips make it a lot easier to balance power input. Personally i ride bmx and trials on flats and can really toss the bike around without having my feet attached, but am not as good with flats on trail rides.

also something to consider. In the lowest traction situations I encounter (steep climbs in loosely packed snow on my fat bike) i focus more on pulling upduring my pedal stroke than pushing down. somehow this helps a lot, if i was pedal mashing on downward strokes i would surely wash out. This is not really related to previous point, just another interesting observation.
I know exactly what you are talking about here. I think what you are describing is a case where we may concentrate on one thing, but the actual benefit is coming from something else our bodies/brains do behind the scenes to make that happen.

I think what happens is that while the mental intent may be to be pulling the upstroke, as part of that effort we also end up pushing over the top and back across the bottom more. And THAT is what actually evens out the pedal stroke.
 

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This is interesting now that I think about it. Do you think pulling up is applying the power at a lower level, or rather that the idea of "pulling up" is acting as a limiter to the down stroke and keeping torque in check? I am full time on flats now, including in the winter on the fatty, and have to control torque as well. I never really thought about it until now but in those situations I do focus more on the upwards foot than downwards, but I am obviously not "pulling up" in a proper sense on the flats.
I think it helps to keep torque in check and balance power input. I use about the same body position whether climbing steep snow or steep rocks. The difference is the rocks require more punchy power to hold momentum through the chunk, the snow requires a steady crawl to not lose traction.
You can definitely apply this with flats too, probably just even more so with clipless.
 

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I think what happens is that while the mental intent may be to be pulling the upstroke, as part of that effort we also end up pushing over the top and back across the bottom more. And THAT is what actually evens out the pedal stroke.
The newest version of the Lopes/McCormack book advises exactly this: dropping your heel as soon as possible to push across the stroke, and raising it as soon as possible to pull across the bottom. It feels like a flipper. It works well to engage your hamstrings.
 
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