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Discussion Starter · #81 ·
ebikes have a motor. period. older access rules were extremely clear on this. and since an ebike is driven at least partially by a motor, it was prohibited from nonmotorized trails. some places have been quicker than others to change access rules to group ebikes with nonmotorized bicycles. I think some places will continue to prohibit ebikes. And the biggest reason for that is the faster climbing speed of ebikes. Faster speeds bring about increases in user conflicts. Speed differentials are a real thing. I've encountered more than one ebiker who fails to dial it back when encountering other trail users. That's the real problem.

In places that are more specifically oriented towards bikes (rather than multi-use traffic) or places that see very little traffic at all, it's not such a big deal. But places that are really busy with a wide variety of trail users, it's a big problem.

Personally, I don't think ebikes should be fully lumped with motos, but I also don't think they should be fully lumped with nonmotorized traffic. I think land managers should consider ebikes as their own thing and permit them access specifically in cases where they make sense given the differences in management that they present compared to other sorts of bicycles and motos. This would absolutely result in different access in different places. Maybe some places would permit them on all trails nonmotorized bicycles may access. Maybe some places wouldn't permit them at all. That's okay, just so long as land managers are making reasoned decisions on it.



Nah. Pie-in-the-sky privileged dreaming. Cost is what will place constraints on ebike adoption. City/town bikes will always be the least expensive ebikes and that's where they will sell the most numbers. Probably still not the highest proportion of ebikes, since even box store bikes for less than $100 can be perfectly passable town bikes. Cost will still place constraints on the proportion of all bicycles sold that will be ebikes. The only people who will buy them will be those who can afford them. Especially for mtbs, which are really just expensive toys. The cost differential between e-motors and ICE vehicles is much smaller, because you're just swapping one method of self-propulsion for another. With bicycles, you're adding an entirely new propulsion system onto the vehicle that didn't exist before. That will never be less expensive, or even all that cost competitive. The technology will advance (esp battery tech), which will keep the cost differential the same. Possibly make it even larger.
Your bit about cost is totally incorrect. Non eBike mountain bikes are extremely expensive, and there are many models that are MORE expensive than eBikes. Rocky Mountain full suspension PowerPlays start out around $5500 USD and for Carbon Fibre around $7200 USD. These are expensive but there are many manual bikes that cost more, even north of $10,000.

Spec for spec manual bikes will generally be cheaper today, but in 10 years with a lot more sales prices will improve.
 

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You’re generalizing your location it seems to everywhere else. Here, in Vancouver, Squamish, Whistler, etc., it doesn’t matter if you have an eBike or not. Trails are open to both. Whistler bike park also allows eBikes. I’ve had mine at the park a few times. I’m not saying your situation isn’t real, but we can’t generalize to the rest of the world that eBikes won’t be allowed on trails just from your situation.
I would say you're ignorant of what it's like in many parts of USA. I've watched hostility between user groups grow over the years. E bikes are exacerbating tensions in many areas. I'm really blown away with how E bikers don't see how motors change the game. You're living in a bubble. You need to view things through the lens of other user groups too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #83 ·
I suspect a lot of ebikers, especially ones that don't come from riding a mountain bike, would choose a non-pedal, throttle only ebike if they could, or even a gas bike but those are allowed on a lot fewer trails so they compromise that they will do some pedaling to gain trail access. This is one reason I think ebikes are bad for the sport of mtb. Yes, I know that at this time, a lot of ebikers do come from an mtb background and many still ride mtb, but as time goes by, there will only be more and more ebikers who never ride an actual mountain bike. You can argue that that just means the sport changes from a non-motorized sport to a motorized sport, maybe it becomes traditional mountain biking and mountain biking in that case. But adding a motor fundamentally changes the sport, no matter what some people want to think. Ebikes might even push to do away with the pedal requirement and allow access to throttle only bikes. You know, democratize the sport, right?

And weight wise, consider that a emtb uses a lot of the same parts as a mtb and are moving toward a lot of their own parts that will be heavier. Plus the motor, electronics and battery. They'll get lighter but they won't be anywhere near 35lbs for an off the shelf full suspension ebike. Mountain bikes today are heavier than they were 10, even 20 years ago.
I don’t think manual bikes will go away, I just predict that eBikes will dominate new offerings and purchases in 10 years. Nobody is saying we’re creating motorbikes or want to. eBikes are very unique as it works well for bikes since it enables the same bike design and manual pedal, just with pedal assist as needed.

And your comment about weight is totally incorrect. The future is here, today. Trek has one of the lightest eMountain bikes at just under 35 lbs! And you can easily remove the battery and motor out and use it as a manual bike at just 27.5 lbs. This kind of innovation is another example of how, in 10 years, there are already markers today that indicate a dominant eBike future. That future is one where saturation is high and price is reasonable.

 

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I would say you're ignorant of what it's like in many parts of USA. I've watched hostility between user groups grow over the years. E bikes are exacerbating tensions in many areas. I'm really blown away with how E bikers don't see how motors change the game. You're living in a bubble. You need to view things through the lens of other user groups too.
I think you are missing the pulse of mountain biking.... I live in the East Coast mountain biking mecca and Ive seen more issues with bikers facing angry horse people than hostility towards ebikes….. Lots of kids riding ebikes and or parents on ebikes to keep up with or tow their kids to the top. Time to face facts: Ebikes are here to stay and will grow with the sport.
 

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I don't mind ebikes per se. If people want to be lazy, too bad for them. For the few who really need the help, bless 'em. eBikers who pass unannounced or exhibit other dick behavior piss me off, just as it would with any rider. For dick ebikers I wish I had the super power to discharge their batteries at a glance, forcing them to peddle their 80 pound "bike" home.
 

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I think you are missing the pulse of mountain biking.... I live in the East Coast mountain biking mecca and Ive seen more issues with bikers facing angry horse people than hostility towards ebikes….. Lots of kids riding ebikes and or parents on ebikes to keep up with or tow their kids to the top. Time to face facts: Ebikes are here to stay and will grow with the sport.
I learned to ride in the pisgah which I"m assuming is your east coast mecca. I've lived in many "meccas" because I'm old and have structured my life around riding. I've seen tensions from east coast to west coast grow over the decades. Mostly just because traffic has increased dramatically, and we ride much faster then we used to. We also braid out trails like we never used to. Of course other user groups get sick of us. Motors just exacerbate this situation. I most certainly don't have my finger on the pulse as you say, but I have eyes.
 

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You’re generalizing your location it seems to everywhere else. Here, in Vancouver, Squamish, Whistler, etc., it doesn’t matter if you have an eBike or not. Trails are open to both. Whistler bike park also allows eBikes. I’ve had mine at the park a few times. I’m not saying your situation isn’t real, but we can’t generalize to the rest of the world that eBikes won’t be allowed on trails just from your situation.
Hardly. Nothing you said refutes what I said. You're just referring to places that were quicker to permit ebikes. Bike parks are among the first places to do it, and I'd argue that they're by far the most appropriate places for emtbs.

You sound like someone who's brand new to this. I've been around the mtb community for decades. Many others have been around longer and have seen the landscape change. I still very strongly remember when there were zero legal places to ride my mtb in dirt within probably 100miles of where I lived. I remember the work it took to get permission to ride, and the effort needed with trail etiquette.

Your bit about cost is totally incorrect. Non eBike mountain bikes are extremely expensive, and there are many models that are MORE expensive than eBikes. Rocky Mountain full suspension PowerPlays start out around $5500 USD and for Carbon Fibre around $7200 USD. These are expensive but there are many manual bikes that cost more, even north of $10,000.

Spec for spec manual bikes will generally be cheaper today, but in 10 years with a lot more sales prices will improve.
What planet are you living on? Someone can walk into a bike shop and buy a respectable, trail-worthy hardtail for less than $1,000. You can walk into any department store and purchase a bike that you can ride on greenway paths and around your neighborhood for less than $100 (USD). No ebike is going to approach that for the capability. You'll never get a trail-worthy emtb for less than $1,000. You'll never get a cheap neighborhood ebike for less than $100.

Comparing the entry point for an emtb with the top end pro caliber race-worthy mountain bikes is not apples-to-apples, either. You're comparing completely different things. You forget, I have been around the mtb community for a couple of decades. I've also worked at a few retailers over the years. I'm not approaching this with blinders on the way you appear to be.

I think you are missing the pulse of mountain biking.... I live in the East Coast mountain biking mecca and Ive seen more issues with bikers facing angry horse people than hostility towards ebikes….. Lots of kids riding ebikes and or parents on ebikes to keep up with or tow their kids to the top. Time to face facts: Ebikes are here to stay and will grow with the sport.
I don't think he is missing the pulse of mountain biking. I think you're seeing a pretty limited part of it. I've had more problems with ebikers on the trails than I have with horses, and I have encountered orders of magnitude more horses than ebikers. I can't wait to see how ebikers and horses get along. :rolleyes: Assholes are everywhere, and THAT isn't going away. The increased speeds that ebikes permit make interactions with assholes worse. They allow people who were already assholes to be even bigger assholes than they were before. People who aren't assholes aren't (probably) going to automatically become one if they ride an ebike, of course. That's not what I'm saying.

LOL @ parents on ebikes to try to keep up with fast kids. I've seen how that one goes. Not uncommon for the faster speeds the ebike permits to let parents get in over their heads and injure themselves. I know parents who have stopped trying to keep up with their kids because they went down hard on their ebike (lacking the skill to go that fast). Ebikes have their place, but that is NOT one of them.

I saw an e-cargo bike in town this morning with 2 small kids on the back. The emotor wasn't being used to allow the rider to go "faster" or to "get more runs in" but rather to enable mom to go for a casual bike ride while towing the kids. That's the real growth area for ebikes. People who just want to burn through the climb faster so they can get more downhill runs in a given amount of time are going to keep emtbs relegated to smaller pieces of land because that activity style is aligning them more closely with motos than with bicycles.
 

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I learned to ride in the pisgah which I"m assuming is your east coast mecca. I've lived in many "meccas" because I'm old and have structured my life around riding. I've seen tensions from east coast to west coast grow over the decades. Mostly just because traffic has increased dramatically, and we ride much faster then we used to. We also braid out trails like we never used to. Of course other user groups get sick of us. Motors just exacerbate this situation. I most certainly don't have my finger on the pulse as you say, but I have eyes.
Just because you have eyes,doesnt mean you can see.... The community here in Pisgah district isn't anything that you are claiming.
 

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LOL @ parents on ebikes to try to keep up with fast kids. I've seen how that one goes. Not uncommon for the faster speeds the ebike permits to let parents get in over their heads and injure themselves. I know parents who have stopped trying to keep up with their kids because they went down hard on their ebike (lacking the skill to go that fast). Ebikes have their place, but that is NOT one of them.

The parents are riding an ebike shuttle park and Ive seen many families enjoy the mix of ebikes and manual bikes..... Any by the way,the mother's and the father's are shredding!
 

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Discussion Starter · #90 ·
Hardly. Nothing you said refutes what I said. You're just referring to places that were quicker to permit ebikes. Bike parks are among the first places to do it, and I'd argue that they're by far the most appropriate places for emtbs.

You sound like someone who's brand new to this. I've been around the mtb community for decades. Many others have been around longer and have seen the landscape change. I still very strongly remember when there were zero legal places to ride my mtb in dirt within probably 100miles of where I lived. I remember the work it took to get permission to ride, and the effort needed with trail etiquette.



What planet are you living on? Someone can walk into a bike shop and buy a respectable, trail-worthy hardtail for less than $1,000. You can walk into any department store and purchase a bike that you can ride on greenway paths and around your neighborhood for less than $100 (USD). No ebike is going to approach that for the capability. You'll never get a trail-worthy emtb for less than $1,000. You'll never get a cheap neighborhood ebike for less than $100.

Comparing the entry point for an emtb with the top end pro caliber race-worthy mountain bikes is not apples-to-apples, either. You're comparing completely different things. You forget, I have been around the mtb community for a couple of decades. I've also worked at a few retailers over the years. I'm not approaching this with blinders on the way you appear to be.



I don't think he is missing the pulse of mountain biking. I think you're seeing a pretty limited part of it. I've had more problems with ebikers on the trails than I have with horses, and I have encountered orders of magnitude more horses than ebikers. I can't wait to see how ebikers and horses get along. :rolleyes: Assholes are everywhere, and THAT isn't going away. The increased speeds that ebikes permit make interactions with assholes worse. They allow people who were already assholes to be even bigger assholes than they were before. People who aren't assholes aren't (probably) going to automatically become one if they ride an ebike, of course. That's not what I'm saying.

LOL @ parents on ebikes to try to keep up with fast kids. I've seen how that one goes. Not uncommon for the faster speeds the ebike permits to let parents get in over their heads and injure themselves. I know parents who have stopped trying to keep up with their kids because they went down hard on their ebike (lacking the skill to go that fast). Ebikes have their place, but that is NOT one of them.

I saw an e-cargo bike in town this morning with 2 small kids on the back. The emotor wasn't being used to allow the rider to go "faster" or to "get more runs in" but rather to enable mom to go for a casual bike ride while towing the kids. That's the real growth area for ebikes. People who just want to burn through the climb faster so they can get more downhill runs in a given amount of time are going to keep emtbs relegated to smaller pieces of land because that activity style is aligning them more closely with motos than with bicycles.
I appreciate your opinion but all you’re doing is focusing on where you live and you aren’t saying much otherwise. You and I cannot take our local experience and generalize to 170 plus countries. It’s pointless. And I’m not sure why you keep referring to how much experience you have mountain biking. I’m from Vancouver, BC and have been riding mountain bikes since 1990. But what is the point in mentioning that? Not much, really.

eMountain bike cost. Obviously my focus on the prediction isn’t entry level mountain bikes like a $1000 mountain bike, it’s around good, full suspension mountain bikes. In Rocky Mountain’s case, their eBikes are about 30% more expensive then their manual counterparts. It’s more expensive, but not crazy. As discussed, prices will improve with economies of scale, and manual offerings will still be around.
 

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I appreciate your opinion but all you’re doing is focusing on where you live and you aren’t saying much otherwise. You and I cannot take our local experience and generalize to 170 plus countries. It’s pointless. And I’m not sure why you keep referring to how much experience you have mountain biking. I’m from Vancouver, BC and have been riding mountain bikes since 1990. But what is the point in mentioning that? Not much, really.

I've read more than one article about the issues you guys have in Vancouver. Booby trapped trails, angry lunatic hikers, destroyed trails..... And you guys have a much better bike culture than we have in USA. Just take a second to think about what motors on bikes means to all the non bike people in your area. The world is bigger than you and your interests.
 

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I appreciate your opinion but all you’re doing is focusing on where you live and you aren’t saying much otherwise. You and I cannot take our local experience and generalize to 170 plus countries. It’s pointless. And I’m not sure why you keep referring to how much experience you have mountain biking. I’m from Vancouver, BC and have been riding mountain bikes since 1990. But what is the point in mentioning that? Not much, really.
So what is TRULY different for the huge variety of places around the world? Not much, really, when it comes down to it. It depends a little bit on the initial rules, but they don't vary THAT much. ebikes have motors. In places where the trail access rules have historically used motors as part of the definition of what is allowed where, then it makes all the difference in the world. that's a lot of places. some places have updated rules to include ebikes. Some haven't. What's so wrong about that statement?

eMountain bike cost. Obviously my focus on the prediction isn’t entry level mountain bikes like a $1000 mountain bike, it’s around good, full suspension mountain bikes. In Rocky Mountain’s case, their eBikes are about 30% more expensive then their manual counterparts. It’s more expensive, but not crazy. As discussed, prices will improve with economies of scale, and manual offerings will still be around.
Yeah, and you sound like someone who has never really been concerned with how much money you have available for recreational equipment or pursuits. A lot of people do have those concerns. That 30% is HUGE. For people with disposable money, they're going to be the ones buying them. I don't believe that prices on ebikes will improve much. Changing technology will keep prices high. Just like with regular bicycles, prices have not come down. They've gone up because inflation and because the manufacturers continue to find more tech to throw in.
 

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I'm not sure you understand what a democracy is. But, I guess that's one of the nice things about living in a free country: you don't have to understand the basic principles of anything.

You clearly lack understanding of democracy and who knows what else. Expanding access and participation from the few to the many and broadening the demographic reach is pretty much the text book definition. See below #2.

Perhaps reading a book as opposed to making snarky erroneous comments on forums would improve your general comprehension of things

verb: democratize;

1. introduce a democratic system or democratic principles to."public institutions need to be democratized"

2. make (something) accessible to everyone."mass production has not democratized fashion"
 

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I'm not sure you understand what a democracy is. But, I guess that's one of the nice things about living in a free country: you don't have to understand the basic principles of anything.
I'm not sure he understands how sports work either. "Let's lower the hoop so that everyone can make a basket" goes away once you reach a certain age.
 

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Two wheel drive!

Light weight Pinion style gearboxes with electronic shifting.

BFO will reduce a super environmentally friendly version of their H2O brake that you can top up mid ride when you need a toilet break.

Specialized will be up to the letter 'S' in their alphabetical list of companise to sue, and realize they're in a lot of trouble! ;)
 

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Since this has become a mountain bike vs E bike thread, let me take the time to thank all the E bikers out there for cock blocking wilderness access. Appreciate that! Happy motoring!
 

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I think we all need to stop thinking about ebikes in terms of bicycles, and start thinking about ebikes as a community. I personally wouldn't consider owning an ebike but they don't bother me in the slightest. What does bother me is the enormous amount of the ebike community I see ignoring signs and bulling their way around the trails, forcing people off the side of exposed trails so they can pass at obnoxious speeds on climbs.

I'm not saying there aren't plenty of respectable ebikers, I've passed many older fellas who ride like they would on a regular bike and follow all of the trail etiquette they're used to. On the flip side, I've seen plenty of ebikers act like twats. I've had people force me off the trail, ride my ass on climbs and seen them sitting and chatting right next to No Ebike signs.

At this point I look at most ebikers the same way I look at boomers out on the trail with their dogs unleashed. They think the outdoors belongs to them and no one else's experience matters.
 
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