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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
by me.

It turned into another dogpile on Ellsworth thread.

I hoping that the thread would not degerate any more than it had...but I let it go for as long as I could.

The constant and continued flame wars and insults will not be tolerated, regardless of which side it comes from.

-gregg
 

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gregg said:
Am I bad site manager? I don't know.
Many people have offered their opinions on that gregg. If you read the latest thread that you decided to delete their opinions are there for you to consider if you are truly interested in the feedback of your clients.

It's obvious that you are willing to let a company with a very tarnished history (putting it gently), and ongoing issues with the truth, to post whatever they want to, even if their posts are fallacious.

It's also obvious that you are unwilling to have consumers question and/or correct the longstanding campaign of misrepresentation that Ellsworth is engaged in.

For a "consumer review" website it strikes many folks as quite odd that only one side of the story is acceptable for discussion, even as Ellsworth continues to try to recast the truth...

p.s. sweet edit where you removed the question I quoted above, your pouting reference to me, etc. It sure seems that if folks want to preserve the truth they'll have to start saving threads before they get deleted, sanitized, made acceptable to Ellsworth, etc.
 

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gregg said:
by me.

It turned into another dogpile on Ellsworth thread.

I hoping that the thread would not degerate any more than it had...but I let it go for as long as I could.

The constant and continued flame wars and insults will not be tolerated, regardless of which side it comes from.

-gregg
Not like they didn't ask for it, practically begged, actually.

:D
 

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Greg, i hardly think that the thread was really that bad. almost all the posters were just stating facts and there were almost no personal attacks or insults. why delete it? lock it up if you want but leave the thread there. why remove real customer experiences and concerns? this is a cosumer review site isn't it? can a manufacturer rep, who originally misrepresented his id on these forums which is against the rules have an open forum for spreading lies and half truths? if he is proven to be lying the thread gets deleted. who is being protected by this? consumers? a manufacturer? an advertiser? how many other forums do you have to do this on? what does that tell you? this is pathetic.
 

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Those posts that mildly violate rules of the site such as flaming and hijacking were the ones that should have been deleted. The whole thread should have been retained.
 

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Booooo.

Yeah, you are cutting off the arm to save the finger.

The badmouthing of Ells customer service was coming from those most familiar with it. Furthermore, PF and others make a valid point that this information needs to be in the open, as the organization in question has a history of trying to alter history.

Censorship is not acceptable in a consumer review site. Yes, this makes you a bad site manager if your objective is the open flow of information for the benefit of those consuming.

edit: That being said, I think that overall, this forum creates an atmosphere that is conducive to sharing information and the mods and admins provide a great amount of leeway in most circumstances. We appreciate everyone's time and effort that is contributed.
 

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When threads go from being informative to flame wars then it is up to the Admin to step up.

The key is for everybody to be respectful.
 

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Gregg,

Props to you for coming in here and making your admission. Now that we have your ear, and in the interest of instructing all interested parties, perhaps you could answer a few questions:

1. Do the manufacturers pay for their forums on this site? If not, who decides whether or not a manufacturer gets their own separate forum on this site?
2. After giving a list of things that may cause a "message" to be deleted, the forum rules state "However, we truly love this community, so we will only remove any given message if we judge that it's in the best interest of the community." Thus, what is in the best interest of the community is really the overarching rule for deletion. This is obviously a fairly subjective test. So, in your opinion what was it about that particular thread that was not "in the best interest of the community?" Yes, there was name calling. Perhaps only those particular "messages" should have been deleted. I don't see why history would not be "in the best interest of the community."
3. Is there contact between forum administrators and manufacturers about the content on that particular manufacturers forum?

Frankly, I believe that this will continue to be a problem so long as there are opportunities to address history and/or negative experiences with a company or product. In this particular case, the manufacturer was the one who opened the door and provided that opportunity. "In the best interest of the community" perhaps there should be clearer rules as to what is allowed or not allowed when it comes to the history of a company or negative experiences with the same. Of course, this is a consumer review site, so what would be the point in limiting consumer feedback? This is an issue that mtbr should address and try to strike a balance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Pete Fagerlin said:
...

p.s. sweet edit where you removed the question I quoted above, your pouting reference to me, etc. It sure seems that if folks want to preserve the truth they'll have to start saving threads before they get deleted, sanitized, made acceptable to Ellsworth, etc.
Yeah, after I posted my original version, I asked Francis to give it a look over, since I wasn't entirely satisfied with what I had written.

He mentioned, and I concurred, that it sounded like I was on the verge of a breakdown..heh.

So, I shortened it up and took out any personal references.

-g
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks everyone for the constructive criticism and understanding.

And thanks for realizing that the vast majority of complaints/compliments/criticisms get posted here completely unchecked.

To answer Pinch's questions specifically:

1.) Manufacturers do not pay for a forum on our site. Francis and I decide on who gets a forum and who doesn't, primarily based on popularity of the brand. I have created some new ones recently, most out of the "other builders" forum, when they reach a certain level of "critical mass". I think the latest ones were Banshee, Commencal, Fuji, and Pivot Cycles.

2.) About that thread...two things really.
One was a company employee insulting another user. Do I understand WHY he called said user a name? Certainly. I'm sure the dude got feed up and frustrated trying to represent his company in his own forum, and feeling like he's constantly under attack. Regardless, I STILL sent him a PM warning about the insult, just as I would any other user.
Two, it is my strong opinion that what Ellsworth is having to deal with in here, is not equal to what they deserve. The same kind of "gang" mentality that happened in F88 (the political forum that is now shut down) is happening here. It's been happening here. And that thread just turned in to another example of it.

3.) I'm not sure exactly what you are asking here, but I'll read it to say, "Do manufacturers have control over what is allowed to be said in their forums?" and the answer is no. If you meant something else, LMK. Complaints and compliments can be found in virtually ALL of the manufacturer forums. Manufacturers do come to us with concerns from time to time and we look at each issue on a case by case basis. For this forum in particular, the concerns that they have brought to us are far fewer than most of you probably would assume. It's been months since I was asked to look at a thread in here.

-g
 

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gregg said:
Thanks everyone for the constructive criticism and understanding.

And thanks for realizing that the vast majority of complaints/compliments/criticisms get posted here completely unchecked.

To answer Pinch's questions specifically:

1.) Manufacturers do not pay for a forum on our site. Francis and I decide on who gets a forum and who doesn't, primarily based on popularity of the brand. I have created some new ones recently, most out of the "other builders" forum, when they reach a certain level of "critical mass". I think the latest ones were Banshee, Commencal, Fuji, and Pivot Cycles.

2.) About that thread...two things really.
One was a company employee insulting another user. Do I understand WHY he called said user a name? Certainly. I'm sure the dude got feed up and frustrated trying to represent his company in his own forum, and feeling like he's constantly under attack. Regardless, I STILL sent him a PM warning about the insult, just as I would any other user.
Two, it is my strong opinion that what Ellsworth is having to deal with in here, is not equal to what they deserve. The same kind of "gang" mentality that happened in F88 (the political forum that is now shut down) is happening here. It's been happening here. And that thread just turned in to another example of it.

3.) I'm not sure exactly what you are asking here, but I'll read it to say, "Do manufacturers have control over what is allowed to be said in their forums?" and the answer is no. If you meant something else, LMK. Complaints and compliments can be found in virtually ALL of the manufacturer forums. Manufacturers do come to us with concerns from time to time and we look at each issue on a case by case basis. For this forum in particular, the concerns that they have brought to us are far fewer than most of you probably would assume. It's been months since I was asked to look at a thread in here.

-g
so did you decide to close down this thread on your own with no pressure from ells? i'm still shocked that you chose to do so, as there have been many threads that were much worse than this on the ells forum.
as far as ells taking an unfair share of abuse, when a company rep starts a thread and is shown to be lying, i think that they are getting what they deserve when the thread goes bad. one of the main complaints against them is that they are dishonest in their dealings with customers. the thread you deleted shows this first hand. i think consumers deserve the right to see that. the thread should have stayed and should be put back up. lock it up if you want, but at least when researching the brand, the thread will still be there for future consumers to see.
 

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Gregg......

Thanks for the explanation. Regardless of whether we agree or disagree with deleting it in the first place, I appreciate your honest explanation of why you did it. I personally would like to see it put back up, maybe with a few individual post deletions, but allowing potential customers to see what kind of company they're giving their business to. However I realize you have the final say to that and want to keep mtbr as "peaceful" a place as possible.

Silence creates suspicion. Thank you for not remaining silent.

Peace out bro and happy trails!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
dirthead said:
Thanks for the explanation. Regardless of whether we agree or disagree with deleting it in the first place, I appreciate your honest explanation of why you did it. I personally would like to see it put back up, maybe with a few individual post deletions, but allowing potential customers to see what kind of company they're giving their business to. However I realize you have the final say to that and want to keep mtbr as "peaceful" a place as possible.

Silence creates suspicion. Thank you for not remaining silent.

Peace out bro and happy trails!
I thought about putting it back up, I really did. I finished re-reading the whole thread again, just now. All 5 pages of it. And I still stand by my initial decision to pull it down. It degenerated before the end of the first page....and got worse from there. Some honest and fair opinions (both negative and positive towards Ellsworth) were given, to be sure. But the signal to noise ratio was too high, and to try and delete "a few individual posts" would make the thread read like Swiss cheese.

And it's not even that I want to keep things "peaceful". Debates are fine...even heated debates are fine...but there is a certain line of respect and fairness that needs to be maintained. Both of these were crossed by both sides.

-g
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
qbert2000 said:
so did you decide to close down this thread on your own with no pressure from ells?....
Yes, I decided to close the thread on my own with no pressure from Ellsworth. I was alerted to the thread by Kenny via PM (addendum: I was alerted by Kenny via PM early on, when the thread was still on page 1). His PM basically said, "hey, I posted something in our forum to try and clear stuff up, and some of the usual suspects are at it again...can you take a look at it." After that, I never heard from him again. And from that point, I let it go. Even after Kenny called Pete a "tool"...I let it go...even after this person and that person presented "hypothetical" situations...I let it go....but it just kept going deeper and deeper.

To be honest, I am actually quite surprised that Kenny didn't PM me or email me, after he called Pete a tool. He clearly f'd up. No company employee should ever say that to another forum member. But like I said, I can totally understand why he said it.

qbert2000 said:
... i'm still shocked that you chose to do so, as there have been many threads that were much worse than this on the ells forum.
....
If there have been many threads much worse...it's probably because I didn't see them and no one reported them.

qbert2000 said:
...as far as ells taking an unfair share of abuse, when a company rep starts a thread and is shown to be lying, i think that they are getting what they deserve when the thread goes bad. one of the main complaints against them is that they are dishonest in their dealings with customers. the thread you deleted shows this first hand. i think consumers deserve the right to see that. the thread should have stayed and should be put back up. lock it up if you want, but at least when researching the brand, the thread will still be there for future consumers to see.
I guess my main point is this....the history of Ellsworth and what has come out in these very forums (and others I'm sure) is well known. The truths, the half truths, and the lies. I think Kenny's initial post was an honest attempt to do the right thing, in an effort to move forward, to progress. I don't think that he was purposefully trying to "cover-up" anything.

It was the same people coming in to that thread saying the same things all over again. Where does it all end? I mean really, all the hypothetical "well, what would you do if XX happened or how would you handle it if YY happened..." It's all a bit petty and ridiculous. The manufacturer is saying, "hey, if you have a real problem let's talk and let's not waste time on what-if-this or what-if-that"....sounds fair to me.

Am I saying that Ellsworth is blameless? No, definitely not. Do they deserve a lot of what they deal with in here already? Yeah, I'd say so. But I think that what they've had to deal with to this point is enough. Now, if there were NEW cases of linkages breaking or whatever...then post away. But it is not necessary to keep bringing up the same issue over and over again.

-g
 

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I agree with some of Gregg's points. I've watched these boards for a while and seen the usual suspects. I think it's cool that people who have experienced Ellsworth first hand can post positive or negative posts - that is part of what this place is about and they have a more valid opinion (I'm talking about owners and ex-owners). The problem is when the same old names come in chiming on about the same old stuff over and over and over again. Anyone who slates Ellsworth instantly becomes a gang hero, anyone who posts something positive is instantly attacked and called a fanboy (I find that somewhat ironic given the fanaticism of another certain designer). It's pretty obvious to most people where the really negative stuff comes from and why. As I said before there is another thread below where someone asks a question and the same old lame trolling has been tried. Hell I've seen people post some ride pics on here only for it to turn into crud from the usual suspects. Probably the reason why this board is pretty quiet.

A shame the thread had to go. I've had some non rider people look at these boards and they think it's a bunch of 5yr olds.
 

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Corporate censorship is the process by which editors in corporate media outlets intervene to halt the publishing of information that portrays their business or business partners in a negative light. Privately owned corporations in the business of reporting the news also sometimes refuse to distribute information due to the potential loss of advertiser revenue or shareholder value which adverse publicity may bring. ...



Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
 

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My regret is that we don't generally appear to have the ear of the manufacturer in this forum. It would extremely valuable to have a representative from Ellsworth actively participating in this forum. But every time somebody from EW tries to do that, they get chased away by the hostilities.

There has been reduced activity on this forum lately, and, in my opinion, i think a lot of us are just plain sick and tired of all the negativity that seems to pervade this forum (much more so, again my opinion, than other forums). I was initially very happy to see the initial post by RogueRider but then totally shocked at the rapid succession of responses (both positive and negative). its like everyone was just laying low, ready to ambush.

Unlike any other forum that i participate in, i find myself being extra careful in wording anything i say out of fear of potential backlash. This makes the forum somewhat uncomfortable and unproductive.

A high school teacher that i am currently volunteering with has a very good mantra: Promote the Positive.

my $0.02 ,
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