Mountain Bike Reviews Forum banner
1 - 20 of 49 Posts

·
Almost Human
Joined
·
2,925 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The hype:
Udall Introduces Bill to Expand San Juan Mountain Wilderness | Mark Udall | U.S. Senator for Colorado
The hype is that designating these areas as wilderness will increase recreation opportunities since there will be more wildlife....

The bill:
http://markudall.senate.gov/files/documents/sanjuan/END11772.pdf
(2) PROHIBITIONS.-The following shall be prohibited in the Special Management Area:
(A) Permanent roads.
(B) Except as necessary to meet the minimum requirements for the administration of the Federal land and to protect public health and safety-
(i) the use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment, or mechanical transport
(other than provided in paragraph (3));
and (ii) the establishment of temporary roads.

(3) AUTHORIZED ACTIVITIES.-
(A) IN GENERAL.-The Secretary may allow any activities (including helicopter access for recreation and maintenance) that have been authorized by permit or license as of the date of enactment of this Act to continue within the Special Management Area, subject to such terms and conditions as the Secretary may require.

SEC. 5. ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS.
(a) AUTHORIZED EVENTS.-The Secretary may continue to authorize the competitive running event permitted since 1992 in the vicinity of the Special Management Area and the Liberty Bell addition to the Mount Sneffels Wilderness designated by section 2(a)(21) of the Colorado Wilderness Act of 1993 (as added by section 3) in a manner compatible with the preservation of the areas as wilderness.

The loss:

SEC. 3. ADDITIONS TO THE NATIONAL WILDERNESS PRESERVATION SYSTEM.
Section 2(a) of the Colorado Wilderness Act of 1993
(16 U.S.C. 1132 note; Public Law 103-77; 107 Stat. 756)
is amended by adding at the end the following:
''(20) LIZARD HEAD WILDERNESS ADDITION.-
Certain Federal land in the Grand Mesa,
Uncompahgre, and Gunnison National Forests com
prising approximately 3,350 acres, as generally de
picted on the map entitled 'Proposed Wilson, Sun
shine, Black Face and San Bernardo Additions to
the Lizard Head Wilderness' and dated December 1,
2010, which is incorporated in, and shall be adminis
tered as part of, the Lizard Head Wilderness.

''(21) MOUNT SNEFFELS WILDERNESS ADDITIONS.-
''(A) LIBERTY BELL AND LAST DOLLAR
ADDITIONS.-Certain Federal land in the
Grand Mesa, Uncompahgre, and Gunnison Na
tional Forests comprising approximately 8,250
acres, as generally depicted on the map entitled
'Proposed Liberty Bell and Last Dollar Additions
to the Mt. Sneffels Wilderness' and dated
December 1, 2010, which is incorporated in,
and shall be administered as part of, the Mount
Sneffels Wilderness.

''(B) WHITEHOUSE ADDITIONS.-Certain
Federal land in the Grand Mesa, Uncompahgre,
and Gunnison National Forests comprising
approximately 13,000 acres, as generally depicted
on the map entitled 'Proposed Whitehouse
Additions to the Mt. Sneffels Wilderness' and
dated December 1, 2010, which is incorporated
in, and shall be administered as part of, the
Mount Sneffels Wilderness.

''(22) MCKENNA PEAK WILDERNESS.-Certain
Federal land in the State of Colorado comprising
approximately 8,600 acres of Bureau of Land
Management land, as generally depicted on the
map entitled 'McKenna Peak Wilderness' and dated November
10, 2010, to be known as the 'McKenna Peak Wilderness'.''.

SEC. 4. SHEEP MOUNTAIN SPECIAL MANAGEMENT AREA.
(a) DESIGNATION.-Certain Federal land in the
Grand Mesa, Uncompahgre, and Gunnison and San Juan
National Forests comprising approximately 21,620 acres
as generally depicted on the map entitled ''Proposed Sheep
Mountain Special Management Area'' and dated
December 2, 2010, is designated as the ''Sheep Mountain Special
Management Area''.
 

·
Almost Human
Joined
·
2,925 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
For those of you wondering why I am so against Wilderness Designation;

Frequently Asked Questions About Wilderness | The Wilderness Society

FAQ about Wilderness:

Question: Are bicycles or mountain bikes allowed in wilderness?

Answer: Bikes are not permitted in wilderness. However, there are thousands of miles of mountain bike trails on non-wilderness Forest Service and BLM lands throughout the United States.

Question: What activities are permitted in wilderness?

Answer: Just about anything :confused: that is lawful activity and does not harm the wilderness or require a vehicle is permitted. A list of popular activities:
* Photography
* Bird watching
* Hiking
* Camping
* Horseback riding
* Hunting
* Fishing

Obviously Mountain Biking is left off the list.

It will be interesting to see if the Colorado Trail goes through any of the Proposed Wilderness Areas.
 

·
Rigid in Evergreen
Joined
·
1,538 Posts
Wow, "increased recreational opportunities" due to "more wildlife"... hell, they might as well just tout how expanding the Wilderness will "save or create 500k new children" on day one.... they could call it the SPECIAL BIG PLACES FOR SPECIAL LITTLE PEOPLE campaign.... or just designate it a "BIKE-FREE ZONE".


They should have to AT LEAST mention the perma-ban on bicycles in each specific bill.
 

·
Rigid in Evergreen
Joined
·
1,538 Posts
...as in removing the ban?
Well, it would be nice if the ban didn't apply if they didn't mention it... but what I meant was that every bill should say that bicycles will be -banned forever- so when people read the bill they are reminded of that fact.

Ultimately I'd like to see the outright ban removed and a policy put in place that allowed mountain biking to be permitted on trails where it makes sense... something more similar to how it works in non-Wilderness areas now where hiking, biking and equestrian user groups work with the local USFS folks.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,883 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,171 Posts
Well, it would be nice if the ban didn't apply if they didn't mention it... but what I meant was that every bill should say that bicycles will be -banned forever- so when people read the bill they are reminded of that fact.
What I don't understand is the metric used by whoever it is that decided on "impact". Because from the perspective of a DOMESTICATED animal, shouldn't horses be included in the ban? And, even w/ me riding HUGE 2.4" tires, I still think my rubber contact w/ the ground is less than someone rocking women's size 6 shoes.
 

·
Almost Human
Joined
·
2,925 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
As a side note I thought this was interesting

Maggie Fox to Lead Gore's Vast Climate Change Conspiracy - ProgressNow Colorado

"Between Mark Udall in the Senate and Maggie Fox at the Alliance for Climate Protection, I feel more confident than ever that we will be able to fulfill President Obama's commitment to end our dependence on foreign energy sources and bring the Earth back from the brink of destruction by climate change."

Maggie Fox is Udall's wife....
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,883 Posts
As a side note I thought this was interesting

Maggie Fox to Lead Gore's Vast Climate Change Conspiracy - ProgressNow Colorado

"Between Mark Udall in the Senate and Maggie Fox at the Alliance for Climate Protection, I feel more confident than ever that we will be able to fulfill President Obama's commitment to end our dependence on foreign energy sources and bring the Earth back from the brink of destruction by climate change."

Maggie Fox is Udall's wife....
Nice!
 

·
Almost Human
Joined
·
2,925 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
What I don't understand is the metric used by whoever it is that decided on "impact". Because from the perspective of a DOMESTICATED animal, shouldn't horses be included in the ban? And, even w/ me riding HUGE 2.4" tires, I still think my rubber contact w/ the ground is less than someone rocking women's size 6 shoes.
From a "soils" perspective those feet exert more psi on the ground than a golf cart tire and create soil compaction. Not such a bad thing for a trail tread, because you want the water moving off the tread. You do not want it infiltrating into the soil profile.

Tires and horse hooves churn the soil and disrupt water movement off the tread, that's the key difference, with one distinguishing factor, horses compact the subsurface soil considerably, while MTB's do not.

Each user group impacts the soil differently, so to compare their impact on the soil and to the trails tread is a meaningless, trivial pursuit IMHO.

If you really want to talk about impacts I would look at wildlife.

IMHO, hikers with dogs have a larger impact than bikes by the sheer nature of off-leash dogs predisposition to wander off the trail tread and disturb wildlife that are bedded down under trees and in other areas adjacent to the trail. On a bike we ride by quickly and never even know they are there. On foot the time we are in proximity to wildlife is increased, thereby disturbing the wildlife more than bikes.

I believe there is also less disturbance from bikes since animals cannot comprehend what a bicycle is. They see no legs walking. They consider it the same as a vehicle, or moving blind. Just my 2 cents...
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,171 Posts
As a side note I thought this was interesting

Maggie Fox to Lead Gore's Vast Climate Change Conspiracy - ProgressNow Colorado

"Between Mark Udall in the Senate and Maggie Fox at the Alliance for Climate Protection, I feel more confident than ever that we will be able to fulfill President Obama's commitment to end our dependence on foreign energy sources and bring the Earth back from the brink of destruction by climate change."

Maggie Fox is Udall's wife....
From ProgressNow: "Maggie Fox to Lead Gore's Vast Climate Change Conspiracy...And that's great news for the future of the Earth, and doubly great because it will really annoy the right-wingers."

Can you please explain to me the instant association between runaway climate change skepticism and the Republican Party? I voted Democratic party last Prez election...yes I voted for Oh-Bummer. But after crunching some numbers and looking at what the proponents are saying vs historical data, I'm skeptical as hell of the "hockey stick" and the science that got produced that conclusion.

And, "...climate change will cause wars, famine, destruction of property, and a major change in our quality of life. If we fail to mitigate the effects of climate change, it will make the issues of terrorism and nuclear proliferation worse."

Wow! Pander much? :skep: I avoided the use of the word alarmist above, but what else would you call that? What's next, The Church of Earth's NEVER Changing Climate?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,171 Posts
Tires and horse hooves churn the soil and disrupt water movement off the tread, that's the key difference, with one distinguishing factor, horses compact the subsurface soil considerably, while MTB's do not.

Each user group impacts the soil differently, so to compare their impact on the soil and to the trails tread is a meaningless, trivial pursuit IMHO.
I'll have to defer to your knowledge on soils. But, from every experience I've ever had, when a trail sees bike tires, it smooths out and tend to hold less water. Is this a contributing factor or a hindrance to erosion? Would the same trail that only sees horses/hikers erode slower than the same one that sees the smoothing effects of bike tires?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
599 Posts
Can you please explain to me the instant association between runaway climate change skepticism and the Republican Party? I voted Democratic party last Prez election...yes I voted for Oh-Bummer. But after crunching some numbers and looking at what the proponents are saying vs historical data, I'm skeptical as hell of the "hockey stick" and the science that got produced that conclusion.
Liberal/Democrat Party Message:
Republicans/Conservatives = Anti-science/Christian/In bed with big business
Therefore:
Climate Change Skeptics = Republicans/Conservatives

This has to be true because there is no way that intelligent/independent thinking citizens could look a all sides of the issue and see that the theory is nonsensical.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,171 Posts
This has to be true because there is no way that intelligent/independent thinking citizens could look a all sides of the issue and see that the theory is nonsensical.
Have you? Can you point me to the sites you used? But, filter out the ones that have no references, or only reference to other environmentalist sites. Raw data w/ some comments from its taker would be best.

Because using undisputed data dating back to 1800 on the ppm count for CO2, the delta is ~0.01% change from then till now. This is a 30% increase in the concentration of atmospheric CO2. To put this value in perspective, atmospheric content of water vapor over the oceans is ~ 4%, or 400x that of CO2, while it's it's around 1% over land, on average...or 100x. Keep in mind the planet's surface is 70% water...water has identical behavior of GHG as CO2.

...and you're telling me CO2 is responsible for the hockey stick? If you DON'T have a bit of skepticism, maybe your grasp of science is a little on the weak side.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
599 Posts
Have you? Can you point me to the sites you used? But, filter out the ones that have no references, or only reference to other environmentalist sites. Raw data w/ some comments from its taker would be best.

Because using undisputed data dating back to 1800 on the ppm count for CO2, the delta is ~0.01% change from then till now. This is a 30% increase in the concentration of atmospheric CO2. To put this value in perspective, atmospheric content of water vapor over the oceans is ~ 4%, or 400x that of CO2, while it's it's around 1% over land, on average...or 100x. Keep in mind the planet's surface is 70% water...

...and you're telling me CO2 is responsible for the hockey stick? If you DON'T have a bit of skepticism, maybe your grasp of science is a little on the weak side.
My intraweb sarcasm has failed me.:madman: I have read quite a bit about the subject from sources on both sides of the debate but am no means any sort of expert. The toughest part of the issue is any temp. data set can be disputed. I agree with your concerns above (they are essentially the same as some papers written by John Coleman founder of the Weather Channel). I think that their are some major flaws in the modeling that drives the hockey stick forecasts.
My point was that the media presents climate change skeptics as uneducated/unintelligent anti-science idiots, rather than independent thinkers. Climate change has become a mater of dogma for environmentalists rather than science.
 

·
Big Boned
Joined
·
1,535 Posts
What I want to know is, how is it the "free thinkers" on the left seem to continually propose such fascist solutions to all those supposed "crises" -- ?

Their answer always seems to be more restriction on our freedoms, whether it's banning 100w bulbs or banning OTC asthma inhalers because of their (vanishingly small) CFC content or banning bicycles from wilderness areas. And all these restrictions are enforced, as all laws are, with the implied threat of government force against us.

The only exception to the rule seems to be abortion. Otherwise it's always -- more laws to strip away our freedom to choose, and to force people to behave in accordance with received liberal wisdom -- or else.

So much for liberal tolerance.
 
1 - 20 of 49 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top