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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
so, i've looked around a bit, but still can't find a definitive answer. i just installed stan's kit in four tires, two new (nevegal and panaracer fire xc pro) and two with minimal miles (smallblock 8), all standard, non-UST tires (2.1). two of the rims are vuelta XRP Pro and the other two are vuelta XRP Team. after watching the installation video, it says that most rims you can leave the rim tape in place, and just install the rubber rim strip over it. however, the rim "tape" that's on these rims is just a non-adhesive thick nylon style. so, i removed those, and did two revolutions of the included yellow nylon rim tape. i then installed the rubber rim strips, tires, and sealant as per the video.

now my problem is that even after many many times shaking the sealant around and letting it lie flat, watching the soap suds for bubbling, the tires are slowly losing air. i've been doing this process basically for the last three days... and i'm just unable to get a good seal. i'll air them up to 30psi, and 12 hours later it's like 10psi. what gives? am i just missing some step? or should i have gotten UST tires? someone told me that i shouldn't use UST tires with standard style rims though... any suggestions? i did a bunch of trail work today and was hoping to get to ride tomorrow...
 

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It usually takes a ride to get full seal on tires, and some tires simply will not hold air as well as others. I recommend a good ride on them and just bring a pump along (and a couple of tubes just in case). I had tires that would do this before I got a ride on them, but once they were sealed (with a few exceptions) they hold air as well as a tube.
 

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McKraut said:
so, i've looked around a bit, but still can't find a definitive answer. i just installed stan's kit in four tires, two new (nevegal and panaracer fire xc pro) and two with minimal miles (smallblock 8), all standard, non-UST tires (2.1). two of the rims are vuelta XRP Pro and the other two are vuelta XRP Team. after watching the installation video, it says that most rims you can leave the rim tape in place, and just install the rubber rim strip over it. however, the rim "tape" that's on these rims is just a non-adhesive thick nylon style. so, i removed those, and did two revolutions of the included yellow nylon rim tape. i then installed the rubber rim strips, tires, and sealant as per the video.

now my problem is that even after many many times shaking the sealant around and letting it lie flat, watching the soap suds for bubbling, the tires are slowly losing air. i've been doing this process basically for the last three days... and i'm just unable to get a good seal. i'll air them up to 30psi, and 12 hours later it's like 10psi. what gives? am i just missing some step? or should i have gotten UST tires? someone told me that i shouldn't use UST tires with standard style rims though... any suggestions? i did a bunch of trail work today and was hoping to get to ride tomorrow...
Just one of the joys of "converting" tires and rims. You never know how well, or if, it will work until you try it.

Using Bonty TLR tires on Bonty TLR rims it takes me under 3 minutes to mount, inflate and seat a tire, with a floor pump. Ready to ride.
 

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When I converted my Easton XC Ones last year with Continental Mountain Kings, it took around 2 weeks to fully seal without leaking down. The best thing to do it to ride. It helps with distribution of the sealant inside the tire.

As for time wise, YMMV as how long it takes for the tires to fully seal.

This is why I run UST rims with UST beaded tires like the Specialized Captain 2Bliss. Its mount up, add some sealant and read to ride. Zero issues.
 

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I did a set of Nevegals last year and found them to be ridiculously hard to seal. What I learned is:
1) The soapy water has as much to do with sealing as the sealant it's self. I can't explain it but if you read the Stan's FAQ, they even mention it there. The more the merrier.
2) You gotta ride them to get everything to seat properly. After a couple rides, they maintained air pressure "better" but it was never perfect.
3) LBS confirmed my suspicion that Nevegals are just hard to seal... Not impossible but they require more patience. It also depends on which Nevegal you have. I was using the 2.35 DTC Tomac (non-ust). Probably the worst of the available Nevegal options for tubeless.

Not sure if you used a compressor or hand pump, but if you have access to the former, you might try running the line pressure a little higher to get them to seat the first time around. Then, let them go for a day, top them off and ride them a bit.
 

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shiggy said:
Using Bonty TLR tires on Bonty TLR rims it takes me under 3 minutes to mount, inflate and seat a tire, with a floor pump. Ready to ride.
+100

I've exclusively used the TLR system (w/ Stan's sealant) for all my tubeless stuff and have had ZERO issues. There are enough TLR tire choices to cover pretty much any condition except maybe downhill.
 

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frdfandc said:
This is why I run UST rims with UST beaded tires like the Specialized Captain 2Bliss. Its mount up, add some sealant and read to ride. Zero issues.
+1 for UST beaded tires; I run Geax TNT. But IME, UST rims are not necessary, nor are rimstrips. Just sealant.

Mine are mounted to taped Mavic rims and taped ZTR Crest rims; zero problems getting them to seat, zero burping, zero blowing off rims. The UST bead is the key, not the rim.

Much weight saving using regular rims over UST. $$ savings if you have regular rims and want to convert without having to buy new wheels.

If you DO buy new wheels, I totally recommend any ZTR rim over UST due to less weight but also designed for tubeless. BST > UST.
 

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dwt said:
+1 for UST beaded tires; I run Geax TNT. But IME, UST rims are not necessary, nor are rimstrips. Just sealant.

Mine are mounted to taped Mavic rims and taped ZTR Crest rims; zero problems getting them to seat, zero burping, zero blowing off rims. The UST bead is the key, not the rim.

Much weight saving using regular rims over UST. $$ savings if you have regular rims and want to convert without having to buy new wheels.

If you DO buy new wheels, I totally recommend any ZTR rim over UST due to less weight but also designed for tubeless. BST > UST.
Bonty TLR rims are similar in weight the the Notubes rims and are much easier to setup and live with.
 

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shiggy said:
Bonty TLR rims are similar in weight the the Notubes rims and are much easier to setup and live with.
In what way "much easier to set up and live with"?

I have a set of Bonty Rhythm comps with Bonty rimstrip, and ZTR Crest rims with yellow tape. They both work perfect holding tires with UST beads with sealant, and are IME more or less equal to set up and live with. YMMV.
 

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McKraut said:
now my problem is that even after many many times shaking the sealant around and letting it lie flat, watching the soap suds for bubbling, the tires are slowly losing air. i've been doing this process basically for the last three days... and i'm just unable to get a good seal. i'll air them up to 30psi, and 12 hours later it's like 10psi. what gives? am i just missing some step? or should i have gotten UST tires? someone told me that i shouldn't use UST tires with standard style rims though... any suggestions? i did a bunch of trail work today and was hoping to get to ride tomorrow...
I usually air mine up to about 40 - 50 PSI to get them to seal first time. I had problems getting a good seal right away if only using 30 PSI.
 

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dwt said:
In what way "much easier to set up and live with"?

I have a set of Bonty Rhythm comps with Bonty rimstrip, and ZTR Crest rims with yellow tape. They both work perfect holding tires with UST beads with sealant, and are IME more or less equal to set up and live with. YMMV.
  • Easy tire mounting and removal.
  • Rim strips are simple to install and rarely need replacing. Unaffected by sealant, and can not be damaged during tire mounting/removal.
  • Proper tubeless tires seat and seal instantly.
  • Sealant is not needed unless required to make the tire casing airtight.
  • Reliable valves. Can not pull through the rim.
And BST does not equal UST. Not even close in design or concept.

With UST the tire and rim beads are designed to fit together closely. Lots of tires and rims made to this spec.

BST has to try to fit many different tire beads shapes, which may or may not match well, and has actually reduced the bead "socket" depth with shorter rim sidewalls and less pronounced bead hooks. The bead seat diameter has been increased to jam the tire in place, an added stress that was not in most tires' design goals. There are few tires designed to be used without inner tubes on Notubes rims.
 

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shiggy said:
Just one of the joys of "converting" tires and rims. You never know how well, or if, it will work until you try it.

Using Bonty TLR tires on Bonty TLR rims it takes me under 3 minutes to mount, inflate and seat a tire, with a floor pump. Ready to ride.
You also have a wheelset/tire combo that is about a pound heavier than a stan's rim with a light clincher. If you can pull it at race speeds good for you, but considering most pros don't resort to the heavier setups (like UST, TR, TLR, etc) speaks volumes.
 

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MessagefromTate said:
You also have a wheelset/tire combo that is about a pound heavier than a stan's rim with a light clincher. If you can pull it at race speeds good for you, but considering most pros don't resort to the heavier setups (like UST, TR, TLR, etc) speaks volumes.
Most pros have a team mechanic to service their bikes. They can replace parts before every race and even swap wheels during a race in the event of a flat.

Plus the OP is talking about a Stans rim strip in a non-Stans rim with trail tires.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
shiggy said:
Most pros have a team mechanic to service their bikes. They can replace parts before every race and even swap wheels during a race in the event of a flat.

Plus the OP is talking about a Stans rim strip in a non-Stans rim with trail tires.
yes, exactly. after basically three straight nights of screwing with soap suds and finding leaks in the bead and shaking and laying flat on the bucket (and a couple in the sidewall....i'm looking at you, nevegal), i took it for a quick ride around the street, let them sit overnight, and then went for a trail ride the next day, and i think they are now good to go, and losing very little if any pressure. but, to make sure i understand correctly, i can (and some would say even should) use UST tires (or TNT tires like geax) in a standard rim?
 

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McKraut said:
but, to make sure i understand correctly, i can (and some would say even should) use UST tires (or TNT tires like geax) in a standard rim?
You can mount any UST beaded tire tubeless with latex sealant to seal the bead to any rim sealed with tape. No rimstrip is necessary. Geax TNT has the reinforced bead and since you need sealant with a non UST rim anyway, this is the tire I use. Lighter than a full UST.
 

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dwt said:
You can mount any UST beaded tire tubeless with latex sealant to seal the bead to any rim sealed with tape. No rimstrip is necessary. Geax TNT has the reinforced bead and since you need sealant with a non UST rim anyway, this is the tire I use. Lighter than a full UST.
You can TRY to mount tubeless tires on standard rims without inner tubes. Whether it actually works is a crap shoot.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
shiggy said:
You can TRY to mount tubeless tires on standard rims without inner tubes. Whether it actually works is a crap shoot.
ahh.... well good, i'm glad i went with standard tires, then. though i may try to find a non-UST with tougher sidewalls for future use. the nevagal was developing pinhole leaks when pumping it up initially to like 35-40psi. they sealed up once i shook the sealant around, but still... had me a little worried for their durability... i was starting to wonder if they were just going to blow out on my on the trail or something. and the smallblock8 tires don't exactly seem robust on the sidewalls, either.

any recommendations for standard tires (non UST) tires that have beefier sidewalls that work well with tubeless?
 

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McKraut said:
ahh.... well good, i'm glad i went with standard tires, then. though i may try to find a non-UST with tougher sidewalls for future use. the nevagal was developing pinhole leaks when pumping it up initially to like 35-40psi. they sealed up once i shook the sealant around, but still... had me a little worried for their durability... i was starting to wonder if they were just going to blow out on my on the trail or something. and the smallblock8 tires don't exactly seem robust on the sidewalls, either.

any recommendations for standard tires (non UST) tires that have beefier sidewalls that work well with tubeless?
Using any standard tire and rim without an inner tube is a crap shoot. Even combos that work for others may not work for you.
 

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shiggy said:
You can TRY to mount tubeless tires on standard rims without inner tubes. Whether it actually works is a crap shoot.
The crap shoot is trying to mount regular tires tubeless to ANY rim, regular or UST. The bead are not designed to stay on a rim without a tube. Therefore, some work, but many if not most, don't.

In contrast, a UST bead is designed to stay on a rim without a tube. They are reinforced with carbon and are beefy and inflexible.

In another thread, you were extolling the virtues of Bontrager TLR. What makes a Bontrager rim any different than any other non-UST rim? What makes a Bontrager TLR tire bead different than any UST tire bead?

In fact, ALL rims are "tubeless ready" because they all have a bead hook - except Stans which has a bead socket. All you have to do is seal them.

The differences between a regular rim and a UST rim are :1) the sealed spoke holes; 2) the channel beneath the bead hook in which the UST tire bead is designed to lock into creating an airtight seal without sealant; and 3) the channel in the center of the rim to make mounting the inflexible UST bead easier.

Other than that, they are the same animal.

Examples:

Regular:


UST:


Study the images and tell me how the two are functionally different, other than:

To convert a regular rim - or a ZTR rim - to tubeless, you need to cover the spoke holes with tape and use latex sealant to get an airtight seal. And you will have a harder time mounting a UST beaded tire and will need levers due to the lack of a center channel.

But you will have a lighter rim and won't have to buy a new one.

If you don't believe me, read this:

Can you run UST tires with a non-UST rim if you seal that rim with one of those fancy rim strips and some sealant? You bet. The upside here is that you don't need to cough up the dough for a new Mavic (all Mavic wheels are UST ready) or Shimano UST-compatible wheelset. Personally, I've always found the rim strip approach a little cobbled-together and hokey, but as long as you are using a real (UST) tubeless tire, you are headed in the right direction. Besides, it's hard to argue with the notion of not coughing up cash for a new wheelset if you're current hoops are holding up fine.

https://bikemag.com/features/onlineexclusive/040306_vernon/index.html
Why is a magazine credible? Because if they publish BS and somebody gets hurt, they get sued.

I won't. I'm just "some guy" posting on the forum. But it's not BS, and if anecdotal evidence is worth anything, I've run both off road and road wheels this way for literally thousands of miles for over 3 years with ZERO problems with tires burping, failing, or falling off the rim.
 

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dwt said:
The crap shoot is trying to mount regular tires tubeless to ANY rim, regular or UST. The bead are not designed to stay on a rim without a tube. Therefore, some work, but many if not most, don't.

In contrast, a UST bead is designed to stay on a rim without a tube. They are reinforced with carbon and are beefy and inflexible.
A UST compatible tire bead is designed to stay on a UST compatible rim without an inner tube. It is the UST tire/rim combo that makes it secure without an inner tube. Standard rims are not UST compatible.
UST mtb tires do not have carbon beads. Most are still Kelvar/generic Kevlar beads.

Road Tubeless tires do have carbon beads, but they also use a different tubeless bead spec from UST.

In another thread, you were extolling the virtues of Bontrager TLR. What makes a Bontrager rim any different than any other non-UST rim? What makes a Bontrager TLR tire bead different than any UST tire bead?
Bontrager TLR tires and rims are UST spec/compatible.

In fact, ALL rims are "tubeless ready" because they all have a bead hook - except Stans which has a bead socket. All you have to do is seal them.
Not true. A hook bead alone does not make a rim tubeless ready.

The differences between a regular rim and a UST rim are :1) the sealed spoke holes; 2) the channel beneath the bead hook in which the UST tire bead is designed to lock into creating an airtight seal without sealant; and 3) the channel in the center of the rim to make mounting the inflexible UST bead easier.
  1. Yes, airtight rims are a given for tubeless
  2. Yes, the bead shape, bead seat shelf and inner tire lock ridge are key.
  3. All rims need a center drop so tires can be mounted. The channel in UST rims can look more pronounced because the bead seat shelf is wider than standard rims in most cases.

Other than that, they are the same animal.
Those differences make standard and UST spec rims entirely different animals. May look the same to a casual observer. Very different functionally.

Examples:

Regular:


UST:


Study the images and tell me how the two are functionally different, other than:

To convert a regular rim - or a ZTR rim - to tubeless, you need to cover the spoke holes with tape and use latex sealant to get an airtight seal. And you will have a harder time mounting a UST beaded tire and will need levers due to the lack of a center channel.
Here you go, and using the Mavic rims you posted:
Automotive design Automotive decal Logo Artwork Symbol
  • The hook and vertical section of the sidewall are the same. Note the tight 90-degree corner between the sidewall and the bead seat shelf.
  • Note the width difference of the bead seat shelf. The UST shelf is about 50% wider than on the standard rim. The UST shelf matches the width of the base of the UST tire bead. On a standard rim the UST spec tire bead is only partially supported.
  • At the inner edge of the UST bead seat shelf is a rib that locks the UST bead in place and further enhances the air seal.
  • Both rims have a dropped center channel and are about the same depth. A center drop is required on all clincher rims to be able to mount and remove any tire.
Then there are other inner shapes used in standard rims. This adds to the variables to having a reliable setup without inner tubes.
White Line Black Black-and-white Monochrome
Sun Rhyno Lite, Sun Equailizer, Alex XD-Lite

Note the variations of the sidewall to bead seat angle, the shape of the bead seat shelf or even a lack of a shelf, and that they all have a dropped center section. UST compatible tire beads do not mate well and are not designed to be used on these rims without inner tubes.

There are some standard rims that have inner beads and bead seat shapes that look similar to UST, but they do not claim tubeless compatibility.

WTB has used such a design for years. When they designed their new Striker Tubeless Compatible System (TCS) rims they changed the shape substantially, and even closer to the Mavic UST shape. They do call it UST compatible.

But you will have a lighter rim and won't have to buy a new one.

If you don't believe me, read this:

Why is a magazine credible? Because if they publish BS and somebody gets hurt, they get sued.

I won't. I'm just "some guy" posting on the forum. But it's not BS, and if anecdotal evidence is worth anything, I've run both off road and road wheels this way for literally thousands of miles for over 3 years with ZERO problems with tires burping, failing, or falling off the rim.
A magazine is no more or less credible than Mavic, Stans, you, or me. The article you quoted is only half right. All Mavic mtb wheelsets are UST, but most Mavic rims not in their wheetsets are not UST compatible. If a Mavic rim number does not start with an "8" it is not UST.

I have also tried DIY tubeless and had it fail. Repeatedly. Only a few combos worked for me, and none were quick or easy to setup. DIY tubeless is just not worth the hassles for me, especially when UST compatible rims and tires can be setup in just a few minutes with a floor pump.

My concern is not with the people that are having success with conversions. It is that too much of the time the advocates of DIY tubeless only talk about the benefits and rarely, if ever, discuss the risks.

Or that DIY setup is not always a simple process.
 
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