[amateur_hour]

I've been contemplating building a new wheelset. I've been eyeing the new Flow MK4's or the tried & true DT Swiss xm481. I've read up about old Stan's flow rims before & saw bad stuff compared to dt swiss. Has anyone seen any reviews of the new flow mk4 rims or have experience with them?

These new flow rims have my attention because they are now welded at the joint & claim that the new asymmetrical design creates a stronger rim. Idk if that last bit is marketing fluff, but what do y'all think? Should I just stay away from Stan's rims & go with DT Swiss?

 

[Karmatp]

i thought the issue dates back before the mk3’s?

I have the mk3 on the back of my single speed for about a year with no issues. This is on the rear of a hardtail single speed that gets beat to hell. I think the mk4 is improved and would serve you for many years without issue.

I did just replace a front wheel on one of my bikes and I went with the stans arch mk4, at 28id, it’s pretty awesome.

 

[TylerVernon]

There is also Newmen, if you can get them.

 

[Cary]

Just to note, asymmetrical does not create a stronger rim, it actually makes for a weaker rim. What it does is allow for more even spoke tension from side to side which results in a stronger overall wheel. I like asymmetrical rims, others prefer symmetrical: In practice both work equally well.

 

[EatsDirt]

i thought the issue dates back before the mk3’s?

I have the mk3 on the back of my single speed for about a year with no issues. This is one the rear of a hardtail single speed that gets beat to hell.

Check around the drillings for cracks...

Stan is dead to me.

 

[aerius]

Stan's still has questionable quality, I've seen a couple bikes with the Mk4 rims and they still have a kink at the seam which leads to uneven spoke tension. I refuse to use their rims for anything other than hula hoops or noisemakers.

 

[Cary]

Stan's still has questionable quality, I've seen a couple bikes with the Mk4 rims and they still have a kink at the seam which leads to uneven spoke tension. I refuse to use their rims for anything other than hula hoops or noisemakers.

Huh?!!

 

[mikesee]

Just to note, asymmetrical does not create a stronger rim, it actually makes for a weaker rim.

The professor should elaborate. There is a hint of truth to what you've written, but it needs clarification.

 

[aerius]

Huh?!!

There's almost always a sizable dip or kink at the seam on Stan's rims, it's a quality control issue which they've had for at least the last 15 years and they still haven't fixed it on their latest rims. Which is why they're only good for hula hoops, wind chimes, or something to bang on while spectating a bike race. I refuse to build wheels with them since I can't get a true wheel with even spoke tension.

 

[mikesee]

There's almost always a sizable dip or kink at the seam on Stan's rims, it's a quality control issue which they've had for at least the last 15 years and they still haven't fixed it on their latest rims. Which is why they're only good for hula hoops, wind chimes, or something to bang on while spectating a bike race. I refuse to build wheels with them since I can't get a true wheel with even spoke tension.

There are only tens of thousands of riders out there who've been happily riding Stans wheels for that alleged 15+ years.

Could they be improved? Everything can.

Even your hyperbole.

 

[amateur_hour]

There's almost always a sizable dip or kink at the seam on Stan's rims, it's a quality control issue which they've had for at least the last 15 years and they still haven't fixed it on their latest rims. Which is why they're only good for hula hoops, wind chimes, or something to bang on while spectating a bike race. I refuse to build wheels with them since I can't get a true wheel with even spoke tension.

What do you recommend for a light alloy wheel?

 

[Joe Handlebar]

I'll just put the caveat out first...I don't have experience with the DT stuff (other than building with their spokes for decades) but I think for the money, there are probably better choices than Stan's and it's not because of the rims. They are light and while they are working, you can ride them pretty hard. But...whoever makes their Neo hubs (freehub bodies specifically) did not do enough homework. Again, nice and light, but they warp under extreme torque at the thinnest section under the pawl.

That deformation puts enough stress on the bearing to completely trash it. I had to replace my freehub body after less than a year of use. Now, that may be just the cost of going with lighter weight wheels, and that's fine...I know that's a thing, and you can break anything, but I've never done that to any other brand I've used with an alloy driver. I'll be good to get one more season out of these wheel with the new driver as they are getting pretty beat, but certainly not enough to replace them just yet. But I'll be building a more durable, and probably slightly heavier, set next.

I found a pic online of what I'm talking about (pay no attention to the axle, it's not my picture). If you look closely, you can see where the alloy warps (mine ultimately developed a crack) at the "base" of the pawl. It's slight, but it's there, and it causes the bearing to fail.

 

[Cary]

The professor should elaborate. There is a hint of truth to what you've written, but it needs clarification.

Any time you cantilever a load further out, strength drops if no other changes are made. So a 30mm symmetrical rim has 15mm of cantilever on each side. Change that to a asymmetrical rim with 3mm of offset, and you now have 12mm on one side and 18mm on the other, making one side stronger and the other weaker. From what I have seen in practice, this isn't really an issue, rim strikes typically fold or break the flange, not destroy the entire structure of the rim, and those that do would likely destroy either type of rim, as once you get past the flange, you are then supported by the entire structure of the rim.

As far as even spoke tension, theoretically more even spoke tension should result in a stronger wheel with symmetrical flex, as all the spokes are exercising the maximum tension, rather than half maximum and half a lower tension. Again in practice, the real world effect seems to be that with even spoke tension, the low side is less likely to have the nipples back out. I have built two sets of wheels where I had spoke loosening issues, both symmetrical with a hub combination that resulted in the low side tension in the 60s. Despite using spoke prep, both suffered loosening spokes on the low side, easily solved with some wicking loctite.

 

[Cary]

There's almost always a sizable dip or kink at the seam on Stan's rims, it's a quality control issue which they've had for at least the last 15 years and they still haven't fixed it on their latest rims. Which is why they're only good for hula hoops, wind chimes, or something to bang on while spectating a bike race. I refuse to build wheels with them since I can't get a true wheel with even spoke tension.

Can you define sizable? All aluminum rims have a small variance where the two ends meet, no matter how carefully pinned, or welded and ground. What do you define as true, as for me personally, I find it impossible to get any alloy rim perfectly true with completely even spoke tension, but can get them within a 1mm or so of true with completely even tension (as determined by a Jobst dial tensionmeter). With disc brakes, perfect true seems to be a pointless goal.

 

[aerius]

Can you define sizable? All aluminum rims have a small variance where the two ends meet, no matter how carefully pinned, or welded and ground. What do you define as true, as for me personally, I find it impossible to get any alloy rim perfectly true with completely even spoke tension, but can get them within a 1mm or so of true with completely even tension (as determined by a Jobst dial tensionmeter). With disc brakes, perfect true seems to be a pointless goal.

2-3mm deviations at the seam, as in I could lay a fresh unbuilt Stan's rim on glass table and slide a spoke under it in the seam area. And flat spots at the seam which were easily visible from 8-10' away. The only other rims which are this bad are el cheapo single wall rims on Walmart bikes.

Not every Stan's rim is that bad, and if I'd only seen 1 or 2 like that in my life I'd be willing to write it off to a fluke or bad batch. Problem is I've seen well over a dozen which were that bad so it's clearly some kind of ongoing process control issue they're having.

 

[mikesee]

Weird.

I build 150-200 Stans rims per year and have yet to see even one with either of those issues.

 

[amateur_hour]

Weird.

I build 150-200 Stans rims per year and have yet to see even one with either of those issues.

Since you build wheels, you easily know more than me. What do you think is a good alloy rim for tail riding?

 

[mikesee]

Since you build wheels, you easily know more than me. What do you think is a good alloy rim for tail riding?

Flow MK4, RaceFace ARC Offset 30, RaceFace AR Offset 30, Chromag BA30, WTB HTZ i30.

 

[prj71]

I'll just put the caveat out first...I don't have experience with the DT stuff (other than building with their spokes for decades) but I think for the money, there are probably better choices than Stan's and it's not because of the rims. They are light and while they are working, you can ride them pretty hard. But...whoever makes their Neo hubs (freehub bodies specifically) did not do enough homework. Again, nice and light, but they warp under extreme torque at the thinnest section under the pawl.

That deformation puts enough stress on the bearing to completely trash it. I had to replace my freehub body after less than a year of use. Now, that may be just the cost of going with lighter weight wheels, and that's fine...I know that's a thing, and you can break anything, but I've never done that to any other brand I've used with an alloy driver. I'll be good to get one more season out of these wheel with the new driver as they are getting pretty beat, but certainly not enough to replace them just yet. But I'll be building a more durable, and probably slightly heavier, set next.

I found a pic online of what I'm talking about (pay no attention to the axle, it's not my picture). If you look closely, you can see where the alloy warps (mine ultimately developed a crack) at the "base" of the pawl. It's slight, but it's there, and it causes the bearing to fail.

View attachment 1956057

Thanks for the heads up. I have the Neo hubs on my bike. So far so good but I'm guessing that could change in the near future.

 

[2021Mach6]

Since you build wheels, you easily know more than me. What do you think is a good alloy rim for tail riding?

Did you decide on a wheel? I've heard good things about the Stan's Flow MK4 ... I wouldn't let one or two negative comments online deter you from buying them. I'm not suggesting anyone is lying, but sometimes a bad experience, which probably did happen, is just an outlier and exception to the rule.

I'm friendly with my LBS and often just hang out chatting while they're building and repairing bikes all day. Between the mechanics and customers, I've heard nothing but good things about them. Plus, they wouldn't recommend them to me if they weren't good.

I have DT 1700s with 350 hubs and love them. Mostly use for enduro and bike parks, so I actually prefer alloy, but I'm building a wheelset for my son's Meta AM and we're going with the Flow MK4 and Hope Pro 4 hubs.

I wouldn't hesitate to get the DT EX 511s either, and if I was getting carbon rims, it'd be Unions or Reserves. I like the NOBL 37s and read nothing but good things about them, but the shape of them annoys me. I get that it makes for a stronger rim and my logic makes no sense and it's completely unreasonable, but that spider web kinda aesthetic instead of the typical round shape, I don't know why, it just bothers me.