spokes? comp, super comp, or revolution?

Supercomp pros
Revo pros

So let's cut the BS...If the builder is skilled enough and are willing to take the extra time....Revo's the way to go

Wow, this thread is a real goldmine of information; thanks everyone!

My question is virtually same as the OP's, aside from a couple of key differences:

1. I'm a tad heavier than the OP; my weight is 205 lb (vs 135 lb for the OP)
2. My riding style is XC + commuting. I try to pick smooth lines, and avoid huge drops
3. I've never broken a spoke in a properly tensioned wheel, aside from the occasional crash :madman:
4. Rims are Bonty Duster 29er at 425g each (I think). I'm told these rims don't mind a bit of spoke tension.
5. Hubs are Halo Spin Doctor Pro (disc).

So how do the above variables affect the decision? Until I read this thread I was thinking SuperComps, but now I'm leaning towards Revolutions (or am I too heavy for them)?

hootsmon said:

Wow, this thread is a real goldmine of information; thanks everyone!

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Information or opinion? Call it what you will. I don't see the results of too many scientific tests.

You raise a good question on a topic that I've purposely kept silent on as I don't have tests (irrefutable ones) to offer; just opinion, and we know what opinions are like don't we? PM me for the famous quotation. Just because some people state their opinion, it doesn't make it fact. Repetition doesn't create fact.

I can only respond to your questions with more questions. And as you, or anyone that I'm aware of, doesn't have the answers then I guess they're rhetorical questions. We really don't need another massive thread of opinions. I wish DT or Sapim would release test results or take a stand on the subject of what they consider the intended purpose of Revolution and Laser spokes.

My questions -

• If Revolution/Laser spokes are (arguably) the lightest spoke, and are standing up to 200+lb people on non-asphalt surfaces (ie - roots & rocks) are they WAY over engineered for 100lb people riding smooth asphalt?
• If so, why don't they come out with a spoke engineered for those criteria? Let's say a 1.5/1.0/1.5mm spoke. Why wouldn't the world's lightest hub maker (Tune?) push for this and offer hub flanges drilled for this? Why wouldn't they get a custom run of spokes?
• If 200+lb people can ride 18/20 spoke wheels, why aren't there 9/10 spoke wheels for 100lb people?
• What measurable performance gain can users realistically expect from a savings of (approx) 90 grams of spoke material? (approx difference between Comps & Revs. Realize this is the weight of two powerbars)

Just (rhetorically) askin' !

mtnbiker72 said:

Your so right, BWW has no fricken clue about building wheels...let alone people who have built hundreds of wheels. What a bunch of idiots

Good call :eekster:

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Easy, trigger. I didn't say any of that. I said if anyone says Revos are not suitable for disc wheels for a 135-lb rider, there are no facts to back that up, so it is an opinion, and due to the lack of supporting facts, an unfounded one. Despite your having roped others into your camp, in actuality you are the only person who said Revos should not be used for disc wheels.
I have exhaustively explained why Revos are strong enough to build bombproof, disc wheels for riders over 200 lbs and have a demonstrated history on many many wheelsets in many applications performing flawlessly with Revos. There are plenty of published masters who know this as well.
What I get from people (like you) are irate opinions about how Revos are 'too thin', or build 'flexy,' 'lively,' or 'whippy' wheels, whatever any of that means. What happens when people test them and compare calculations on them them is that the numbers show very little difference in performance between a Revo and a Comp, and even less a SuperComp. Other than marketing copy from DT, what have you got? I'd love to hear it.
I didn't say anyone was an idiot or even that they have no clue about building wheels... way to take it to the schoolyard level.

Mike T. said:

I wish DT or Sapim would release test results or take a stand on the subject of what they consider the intended purpose of Revolution and Laser spokes.

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Would you use DT's recommendation to build touring wheels out of straight gauge spokes? If you don't believe manufacturer's stated measurements of their rims, why would you take their word for intended purpose of spokes?
I have explained the numbers differences (stress, elongation, etc.) and I stick to facts. I don't expect anyone to believe something I say just because, so I provide the basis and everything I used to arrive at that conclusion. Also, at least one great set of test results are out there. Rinard's data on lateral stiffness is pretty powerful.

Mike T. said:

My questions -

• If Revolution/Laser spokes are (arguably) the lightest spoke, and are standing up to 200+lb people on non-asphalt surfaces (ie - roots & rocks) are they WAY over engineered for 100lb people riding smooth asphalt?
• If so, why don't they come out with a spoke engineered for those criteria? Let's say a 1.5/1.0/1.5mm spoke. Why wouldn't the world's lightest hub maker (Tune?) push for this and offer hub flanges drilled for this? Why wouldn't they get a custom run of spokes?
• If 200+lb people can ride 18/20 spoke wheels, why aren't there 9/10 spoke wheels for 100lb people?
• What measurable performance gain can users realistically expect from a savings of (approx) 90 grams of spoke material? (approx difference between Comps & Revs. Realize this is the weight of two powerbars)

Just (rhetorically) askin' !

Click to expand...

• Maybe... but nobody likes weight limits on equipment... and they aren't going to offer every diameter of the rainbow with appropriate weight limits. Also, all steel components are over-engineered. Believe it or not, but tensile testing of numerous 'identical' samples of the same steel produces quite a bit of scatter. That's why spokes are designed not to be loaded to anywhere near the yield strength.
• marketing question... i'm an engineer
• same question, right? see answer 1
• this is an age-old question that has no answer. why edge rims? why carbon bottle cages? why carbon anything?

I know they were rhetorical, but I couldn't help answering. :thumbsup:

We build disc MTB wheels with Rev spokes, but only recommend them occassionally to a few of our customers. Rev spokes take a long time for us to work with, and even with our diligent spoke stress relieving efforts, there's still a chance that a wheel will need a minor touch up in a couple of weeks. We're able to build race wheels with Rev spokes that won't really need any maintenance, but these come with a considerable cost of our time. Rev spokes represent one of the lightest weight spoke options in the world, our pricing is not indicative of that, and will probably be updated in the not too distant future. If we charged more, it would cover more of the time we need to work with them.

That's the time/money management explanation. Now for the basic materials/reality explanation.

As you probably know, Rev spokes are more prone to "twisting" during tensioning. Our goal is to prevent this effect, to the best of our ability. If a spoke twists too much, it can potentially weaken. Rev spokes with their elastic thin center section, are able to twist to a point before they weaken, but only to a certain point. Inexperienced wheel builders could easily damage their rev spokes as a result of too much twist or stretch. Also, Rev spokes are more elastic than other types, if they are undertensioned, they are more prone to breakage (theoretically). Also, due to their thin center section, if they are overtensioned, they will actually stretch and become worthless. Thus, Rev spokes represent a product that can't be twisted too much, can't be overtensioned, and shouldn't be undertensioned. Obviously these criteria apply to all spokes, but Rev spokes with their thin center section, have a tiny window of acceptability, (by our internal standards).

Does the thin center section make Rev spokes weaker? Actually not from our DT info. Rev spokes are tested to a higher straight pull force (1200-1300 Nm) than Champion spokes (1100 Nm). The key to that statement is "straight-pull". As soon as you start twisting a spoke, I'm guessing that # goes down, probably pretty quickly. As you can imagine, the number of wheel builders that can work with Rev spokes goes down, rather quickly.

Please keep in mind, this point of view is an extension of our (BWW) company policy. What you may be able to achieve with your own experience may differ.

Enter "Aero" spokes. Made from the same wire, relatively same weight per length. What's the difference in strength? Theoretically none/very little. In real life, the aero spokes allow for two things different than Rev spokes.

1) They quickly yield instant feedback on spoke twist, allowing for any builder to minimize and prevent spoke twist, thus preserving each spoke's straight pull force capacity.

2) They have more surface area in contact at the spoke crosses.

DT does not recommend Rev spokes for disc wheels. We generally parrot this info. SuperComp spokes are designed to be light and resist twist. Rev spokes are just as strong, but twist easily. If you do that, their strength decreases rapidly. MTB wheels, with their future life of torque on both sides of the axle, as well as general punishment, and the additional chance of exposure to large impact forces under different angles, all combined lend a preference to properly built, consistently even tensioned wheels.

With Road wheels, Rev spokes are a little easier to manage, since the front wheel is evenly tensioned, and the rims have machined sidewalls that allow us to zero in on what's really happening. MTB disc rims often have stickers on the side that mess up our indicators, creating an instant .00393" - .0059" error/deviation.

I wouldn't recommend Rev spokes to Any inexperienced builder, nor any experienced builder without a calibrated tensiometer and a decent truing stand, and an understanding of what it all means.

I would recommend SuperComp spokes to any rider that wants a very light weight MTB disc wheel set, whom understands the value of having a wheel set that most experienced wheel builders could maintenance without complication.

I am not roping ANYONE into my camp, I am suggesting that the OP follow the recommendations of not only experienced wheel builders (including myself) but of the spoke manufacturer themselves. I have actual REAL WORLD experience on Rev's with rim brakes and they were too flexible when I was 185lbs...let alone anyone over 200lbs so while you and other engineers can work it all out with your calculators, real world experience tells me and many others who have actually rode on them that they are not suitable.

I would recommend anyone follow DT's recommendation on spokes as they know them better than anybody. And yes, I would use strait gauge spokes on a touring bike that I intended to load with 40lbs+ worth of gear. The last thing I would want riding down a hill at 35mph fully loaded with old geezers buzzing by me in Motor Homes is a wheel flexing. Strait gauge builds a stiffer wheel...that's why they recommend them. The fact is that DT developed the Supercomp for disc wheel applications, you want to call it "marketing" that's fine. I'd say they did a substantial amount of testing, both lab and real world on professional riders bikes to back up their "marketing".