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Discussion Starter #1
I have a wheel with a few spokes that need to be replaced. In replacing broken spokes in the past, I have never used grease or spoke prep on the spoke before threading into the nipple. The most recent one I did this way comes loose often, so I'm guessing either the grease or the prep is needed.

Does it matter functionally which I use? Does the chemical that is spoke prep live by another name in the non-bike related world? Is it the same as blue loctite?
 

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carpe mañana
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The biggest issue with not using spoke prep is that you can't tension the spoke properly before winding it up. The reason your nipple is coming loose is because your original tension on the spoke was low. Linseed oil is a very good prep. I've gone as far as using car wax for spoke prep or finishline lube. Don't use Loctite as it makes future adjustments difficult without a tool to hold the spoke to keep it from winding.

_MK
 

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A wheelist
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GrantB said:
I have a wheel with a few spokes that need to be replaced. In replacing broken spokes in the past, I have never used grease or spoke prep on the spoke before threading into the nipple. The most recent one I did this way comes loose often, so I'm guessing either the grease or the prep is needed.

Does it matter functionally which I use? Does the chemical that is spoke prep live by another name in the non-bike related world? Is it the same as blue loctite?
Spoke Prep (upper case letters) to use Wheelsmith's (the marketer's) words is "mostly teflon".

True lubes for threads are things like anti-seize compound and I use Permatex like Nate uses. Any lube (oil, grease) is better than no lube.

Properly tensioned spokes don't need thread locker like Loctite or the locker mixed with spoke prep's teflon.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Okay, I get the lube point. Much thanks for that. Now, explain "wind up" to me.

When I replace a spoke, I just turn the nipple until it feels to the torque wrench in my wrist like it has the same tension as its neighbors. Is this not good enough? So far the wheel has stayed true. Is this not "wind up" ?
 

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carpe mañana
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GrantB said:
Okay, I get the lube point. Much thanks for that. Now, explain "wind up" to me.

When I replace a spoke, I just turn the nipple until it feels to the torque wrench in my wrist like it has the same tension as its neighbors. Is this not good enough? So far the wheel has stayed true. Is this not "wind up" ?
Wind up is the spoke getting twisted as you tension it up. Best way to observe it is to mark a line on the spoke with a permanent marker, as you tension the spoke you will start to create a little spiral out of that black line. Essentially as you bring the spoke up to tension you have to make sure that at the end of the tensioning the line remains straight, otherwise, the spoke will loosen over time as it slowly unwinds (have you ever heard you wheel ping after you trued it up?). Also, you can go past the point where the spoke unwinds fully, then you have a permanently twisted spoke which is not as strong as the straight spoke. So you have to be careful not to wind it up too much during tensioning. Butted spokes are far more prone to wind up than straight gauge. Aero spokes, like CX Rays are horrid, although they are easier to hold in place due to their bladed nature.

_MK
 

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MK_ said:
Aero spokes, like CX Rays are horrid, although they are easier to hold in place due to their bladed nature.
The first wheel I built with CX-Rays was a real P-I-A. Of course I didn't have the handy Sapim slotted tool and I used a small set of pliers with which to do the holding. Now I've built a few sets using CX-Rays (using the tool from Thor!) and I find building with those spokes much easier than normal DB spokes. I never allow any wind-up in the first place so there is none that needs to be dealt with. Nice!
 

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carpe mañana
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Mike T. said:
The first wheel I built with CX-Rays was a real P-I-A. Of course I didn't have the handy Sapim slotted tool and I used a small set of pliers with which to do the holding. Now I've built a few sets using CX-Rays (using the tool from Thor!) and I find building with those spokes much easier than normal DB spokes. I never allow any wind-up in the first place so there is none that needs to be dealt with. Nice!
Yeah, I took a piece of aluminum and cut a slot with a band saw, works like a charm!

_MK
 

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Discussion Starter #9
So wind up you want to avoid? It's not something you want to happen to a spoke, right?
 

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GrantB said:
So wind up you want to avoid? It's not something you want to happen to a spoke, right?
Wind-up is spoke's failure to resist the friction in the nipple/spoke threads. Rather than the nipple screwing onto the spoke, the spoke twists instead. Therefore nothing meaningful was gained. The spoke just twisted.

When the wheel is stress-relieved (either intententionally [good!!] or unintentionally when the wheel is first ridden [poor wheelbuilding] ) the spoke untwists and its tension is lost. When 32 (36, 28 or whatever) do this then you have a serious problem ~ all your carefully tightened spokes just loosened themselves.

Heck it's probably even worse when just some of the spokes were wound up! When only some of the spokes unwind then a carefully tension-balanced set of spokes are all over the map. Uhhh but what's the chances that the spokes' tensions were even in the first place if simple spoke-windup was never acknowledged?

That folks is poor, sloppy "wheelbuilding".
 

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Wow what a good thread, very good information. Makes sense about reliving the stress of the spoke, you dont want any stored up potential energy winding or unwinding your work. Im building some wheels soon, as well.

Anti Seeze seems kinda liquidy, do you think some vasiline would work? or vasiline + spoke prep?
 

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SLX said:
...Anti Seeze seems kinda liquidy, do you think some vasiline would work? or vasiline + spoke prep?
No. I would not even think of using Vaseline.
MikeT likes antiseize (it is far from "liquidy").
I prefer Phil's Tenacious Oil.
 

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SLX said:
Wow what a good thread, very good information. Makes sense about reliving the stress of the spoke, you dont want any stored up potential energy winding or unwinding your work. Im building some wheels soon, as well.

Anti Seeze seems kinda liquidy, do you think some vasiline would work? or vasiline + spoke prep?
If you're anti-seize appears to be "liquidy" then you need to stir what's in your container. ;)

If you're worried about it not staying in place - i've got two wheels in the garage that have about 8 years and 3000 kilometers on them. Plenty of stream crossings, too. Checked them this past weekend - still have a/s on the threads, still true and still evenly tensioned.

If you want a valid complaint about a/s - it's messy. :p :D

Also, don't think that spoke nipples are the only good place to use this stuff. ;)
 

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Sugary Exoskeleton
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Linseed Oil

Yup, I second the vote for Linseed Oil.

Works like a charm. Costs pennies.

JMH
 

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spoke torsion is what they mean

If you had a bladed spoke it would be easy to see.
The spoke would start to twist and no longer be straight. On a round spoke this is harder to see. So, The reason the spokes are coming loose is partially due to spoke torsion.
When doing adjusments on round spoke it should be felt by hand.
Go to sheldon brown's website it will help you.
 
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