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Chips n Beer said:
Who ever heard of a cop giving a writen warning? Not me

To up hold a radar ticket in court the ranger has to show the radar is calabrated, he must have the training to use radar from CHP, and he has to show that the road way was assessed for a safe speed. The ranger most likely could not write a ticket that would stick.
While I agree with you, and not trying to argue, but to play devil's advocate, calibration and training are readily available to them year round. Wether they took the time to do this is something maybe worth finding out in court. I would guess that they know that and did take the time before radaring people since that would be part of their normal work. (I am assuming) the 15 mph rule has to be outlined in their park plan. It would be careless/negligent/plain stupid of them to post that limit and enforce it otherwise.

I have heard of written warnings (as has gregg above). I don't think they would look it up when deciding to write you another warning or ticket, but when you do get a ticket nd try to contest it in court, and they show that you have been warned, and accepted the warnings, one or four times, good luck fighting the ticket!
 
TahoeBC said:
Got taged on Dogmeat once
Nice! Just like those cops that radar people at the bottom of the Grapevine in LA.

The real big problem is that once armed with a radar gun, and your goal is to find and fine speeders, well...we're all problem solvers...
I'm going to go where people go fast. Nevermind that it is either safe to do so, or fighting physics to go any slower!
 
Wanna share?

I got mine on the last day of September or first day of October. My story matches Gregg's well. I ride safe, slow around corners and am always aware that people could be walking or standing just beyone my view. I am especially aware of this on St Joe's. I ride there often and see rangers all the time. They know me. I coach the high school mtb team.

My present came the day after I checked my son into the hospital. He was there for two weeks in July and I was feeling pretty low. I thought a ride before heading to Kaiser would help me out. The ranger was polite, even thanked me for stopping. He asked why I don't have a computer on my bike. I replied that I have more than 5 bikes and computers are hard to keep calibrated and working. Besides the expense for so many bikes! I teach my kids to ride the way I do...the "downhill skier has the right of way" is my philosophy only translated into mountain biking.

My son spent 3.5 weeks in the hospital. Just after he (finally) got home, I ran into another ranger on St Joe's. I know this one better than the others. He said hello and mentioned he heard I got into some trouble earlier. It turns out I am known well enough that word spread in the MROSD/ranger ranks. Geez...I was feeling bad enough. The ranger was great. We talked for a long time. I told him about my kid (while having troubel to keep the tears at bay). Before we went our own ways, he apologized for giving me a hard time.

I understand the need to keep the trails safe for all users. Still, I have a hard time understanding radar without the implementation of a "safe" rule (as in driving). While driving one can get a ticket for driving too slow or too fast for conditions. Last spring I followed a kid down St Joe's after he came barreling down (just missing one of my students). There is a need for education and flexibility. I thought the ranger was good about not giving me a ticket. No one is going to beat me up more than I do myself.

Kathleen
 
Chips n Beer said:
Who ever heard of a cop giving a writen warning? Not me

To up hold a radar ticket in court the ranger has to show the radar is calabrated, he must have the training to use radar from CHP, and he has to show that the road way was assessed for a safe speed. The ranger most likely could not write a ticket that would stick.

From experience- Contest any ticket from a ranger, compare the rediculus fines for riding a bike to the cheeper and more dangerous auto violation. You could get the fine reduced or thrown out.

Its also a good idea to ask rangers if you are free to go when stopped or if you have to give them info. Many times they cant detain or demand info. That's why, when you dont stop nothing happens, but play it safe a stop.
Chips n Beer, the rules that apply to radar ticket issuance as you have mentioned are only for enforcing the California Vehicle Code. These speeding mountain bike tickets are written on what amounts to a municipal code, similar to the codes enforced by cities for things like barking dogs and posting garage sale signs illegally.

From experience (former law enforcement here) there is no statewide rule on the calibration of radar guns used in this particular manner. And as far as training and assessment of safe speed, that is something that only applies to roads where the CVC is enforceable. There is probably an administrative section in the code used by Mid-Pen for enforcement that covers these factors, just in case someone calls it bullsh** in court.

I do agree with you on contesting each and every ticket received for speeding on a bike. It is certainly worth the effort. Just FYI, the citation section "bail" amount is usually something rather low for these municipal code tickets, somewhere between $25.00 and $100.00. It is the additional fees that are added on, such as court processing or agency processing fees. Those are the things that jack these tickets up all the way to $300-400-500 levels. Just another way for the gubmint to rape us. They already tax us to provide the service of law enforcement/judiciary/courts, but they got the state to approve what amounts to charging us a second time for these same services.
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
francois said:
...

Do work to change the 15 mph speed laws and the other inane bike laws in Norcal.

These are just my opinions of course.

fc
How do I do this exactly? I mean...is it just going to the meetings, or is there something more?

And do we (mountain bikers) really have a snowball's chance in hell, in getting the 15 MPH limit raised/removed?

I am willing to spend time for the cause, but I want to know that it's not just a pipe dream.

-g
 
gregg said:
I got this a little over a week ago, just gettin' round to posting it now.

A little souvenir from the rangers at Fremont Older. At least it's not a ticket.

What it is, is a written warning, for biking over the 15 MPH speed limit. They keep 'em on file and if you get too many, bad things will happen to you.
Well...you did better than I at Older Gregg!

I got popped twice at Older for exceeding the ol' 15 when I use to live in Sunnyvale. That's been years and years ago but I think each of those tix was in the $175-ish neighborhood. Sounds like they have gone up significantly if they are up to $300-ish.

Whenever I see these 15 MPH speed limit discussions/topics it always reminds me of a dude here on mtbr that had in his signature a quote that always made me laugh. Something like...
"15MPH Speed Limit = keep hitting the brakes until you aren't having fun...then you know you are going 15 MPH"

Anyway...good luck keeping it at 15 :)
 
Advice with Rangers

When it comes to Rangers and speeding, I like to follow Mark Weir's advice. Hammer down, use that adrenaline and if he catches up to you on the ATV stay on his right, in order to grab you he has to take his hand off the thumb accelerator, thus slowing down and allowing you to stay ahead.

Going riding in Canada, gives you an idea of just how great it could be...too bad I have EU citizenship and not Canadian.
 
grrrah said:
While I agree with you, and not trying to argue, but to play devil's advocate, calibration and training are readily available to them year round. Wether they took the time to do this is something maybe worth finding out in court. I would guess that they know that and did take the time before radaring people since that would be part of their normal work. (I am assuming) the 15 mph rule has to be outlined in their park plan. It would be careless/negligent/plain stupid of them to post that limit and enforce it otherwise.

I have heard of written warnings (as has gregg above). I don't think they would look it up when deciding to write you another warning or ticket, but when you do get a ticket nd try to contest it in court, and they show that you have been warned, and accepted the warnings, one or four times, good luck fighting the ticket!
I actually brought a Physics textbook to traffic court once, using the Kinematics equations in the first few chapters, then argued and nullified the officer's testimony on independent speed estimation using the chalkboard in the conference room. The officer didn't have a chance to prove himself, while I was able to work a simple equation backwards to confirm my answer, including acceleration, and determination of the officer's ability to tell speed of an object, while he wasn't able to estimate the distance between point a and point b. The judge didn't want to hear anymore and dismissed the case.

And it definitely helped to show my grades in Physics.
 
Jerk_Chicken said:
I actually brought a Physics textbook to traffic court once, using the Kinematics equations in the first few chapters, then argued and nullified the officer's testimony on independent speed estimation using the chalkboard in the conference room. The officer didn't have a chance to prove himself, while I was able to work a simple equation backwards to confirm my answer, including acceleration, and determination of the officer's ability to tell speed of an object, while he wasn't able to estimate the distance between point a and point b. The judge didn't want to hear anymore and dismissed the case.

And it definitely helped to show my grades in Physics.
If I ever get a speeding ticket on my bike, I'm giving you a call, and I'll buy you dinner somewhere if you be my expert witness :thumbsup:
 
Jerk_Chicken said:
I actually brought a Physics textbook to traffic court once, using the Kinematics equations in the first few chapters, then argued and nullified the officer's testimony on independent speed estimation using the chalkboard in the conference room. The officer didn't have a chance to prove himself, while I was able to work a simple equation backwards to confirm my answer, including acceleration, and determination of the officer's ability to tell speed of an object, while he wasn't able to estimate the distance between point a and point b. The judge didn't want to hear anymore and dismissed the case.

And it definitely helped to show my grades in Physics.
I have to call BS. When exactly was this and what court?

I've had the privilege of exploring the Midpen court system and it doesn't work that way.

But hey, if you got the specifics, I'd like to learn.

fc
 
I don't know what a Midpen court is, but I was speaking about traffic court.

You are afforded the chance to speak in traffic court if you plea "Not Guilty". I elected to go to trail, and I carefully worded my requests to the judge, as they don't really have to do much if you don't word requests carefully and properly. My premise was that the officer can't estimate speed if he can't estimate the A to B points. He wasn't able to prove that he had a definitive A to B point, as in his notes he didn't have the EXACT location and his frame of view. Fundamentally, one part of kinematics is that there has to be an interval, but he wasn't able to establish how long even his frame of reference was. It could be established in some way that if he even had the time of his view, he could have estimated my speed. I even asked how fast it was to walk from one side of the conference room to the other, something I didn't even know because I didn't know the distance (perhaps 15 feet and I couldn't convert on the spot due to being taught in Metric). It took about ten minutes in total, including showing the judge my textbook and running over the equations, so I was either convincing, or I baffled him with BS. At the end, I motioned the judge for dismissal, or I would request an adjournment to collect more visual evidence, along with filing for discovery on when the officer was last tested for independent speed estimation. This part was important because it has to be requested for a dismissal or the judge won't give one.

Done. I had free time during those years, so I'd do stuff like show up to court and view other conferences and see how it all worked, along with going to court on a free day and demanding a trial, something well within my rights, as they had to be prepared at any time to convict me.
 
Jerk_Chicken said:
I don't know what a Midpen court is, but I was speaking about traffic court.

You are afforded the chance to speak in traffic court if you plea "Not Guilty". I elected to go to trail, and I carefully worded my requests to the judge, as they don't really have to do much if you don't word requests carefully and properly. My premise was that the officer can't estimate speed if he can't estimate the A to B points. He wasn't able to prove that he had a definitive A to B point, as in his notes he didn't have the EXACT location and his frame of view. Fundamentally, one part of kinematics is that there has to be an interval, but he wasn't able to establish how long even his frame of reference was. It could be established in some way that if he even had the time of his view, he could have estimated my speed. I even asked how fast it was to walk from one side of the conference room to the other, something I didn't even know because I didn't know the distance (perhaps 15 feet and I couldn't convert on the spot due to being taught in Metric). It took about ten minutes in total, including showing the judge my textbook and running over the equations, so I was either convincing, or I baffled him with BS. At the end, I motioned the judge for dismissal, or I would request an adjournment to collect more visual evidence, along with filing for discovery on when the officer was last tested for independent speed estimation. This part was important because it has to be requested for a dismissal or the judge won't give one.

Done. I had free time during those years, so I'd do stuff like show up to court and view other conferences and see how it all worked, along with going to court on a free day and demanding a trial, something well within my rights, as they had to be prepared at any time to convict me.
Ok, that is legit. Midpen Court is indeed Traffic Court in Palo Alto. I wasn't sure if you had the time and energy to do plea process after showing up for the arraignment on a different day. You clearly did.

Just fyi, doing this is two court dates. One is an arraignment or entering a plea day. Then you have to schedule a hearing. You are in there with all the DUIs and the gems of society. So it is a big commitment to go through a fight.

If you plead guilty, your fine gets chopped in half almost automatically. That is worth doing for sure.

Thanks for the info Jerk_Chicken.

fc
 
gregg said:
How do I do this exactly? I mean...is it just going to the meetings, or is there something more?

And do we (mountain bikers) really have a snowball's chance in hell, in getting the 15 MPH limit raised/removed?

-g
Yes, of course. Be active on the boards and go to the meetings when we rally.

There are a lot of trail management organizations and we will get wins there left and right. There's already other parks opening new singletrack to bikes. There are other parks that allow over 15 mph and night riding.

Midpen however is the behemoth dark side though and that will take a while. The first step is awakening and non-acceptance of the status quo. When working with Midpen, think long-term. Do it for our kids.

fc
 
francois said:
If you plead guilty, your fine gets chopped in half almost automatically. That is worth doing for sure.
In the last fifteen years I have had three traffic tickets. All three had been dismissed when officer did not show up. I found it to be worth my time - did not take long to drop by to say not guilty and to show up to be dismissed. I also was not asking for a quick appointment, so it was half a year or so later after the ticket. Two of them had been in $400 range.

Maybe if we all keep showing up they will get tired of having to show up in court and waste half a day. And go up clean some horse poop from the trails instead. :)
 
francois said:
Ok, that is legit. Midpen Court is indeed Traffic Court in Palo Alto. I wasn't sure if you had the time and energy to do plea process after showing up for the arraignment on a different day. You clearly did.

Just fyi, doing this is two court dates. One is an arraignment or entering a plea day. Then you have to schedule a hearing. You are in there with all the DUIs and the gems of society. So it is a big commitment to go through a fight.

If you plead guilty, your fine gets chopped in half almost automatically. That is worth doing for sure.

Thanks for the info Jerk_Chicken.

fc
No worries, Francois. One thing that I have to make as a disclaimer: Don't take my advice as the word because many courts work differently. I've been to different counties and villages and they all don't work the same. I was simply lucky.

Now that I don't live out there and have no standing tickets, here's one really nice trick:

Go to court on the day you are scheduled. Out in the municipality in question, I think they gave 8:30am. I don't show until like 11:00. At this time, it's guaranteed the cop is gone, and they are not prepared. They get pissed, but they have to stamp you in, and vacate an arrest warrant if they issued one for failure to appear. The thing is you have appeared and this time is when they have the trials and further conferences. Nothing they can do, so they adjourn. Three times, and they have to dismiss. I've had tickets going for two years until they had to be dismissed based on my right to a speedy trial being violated. Motions have to be made on this as well, or the judge won't offer it. Same for the dismissal on the third adjournment. I found it odd that when "the people" weren't prepared on the third time, I still had to ask for a motion to dismiss because they didn't offer it.
 
Where the heck in California did you do all this "show up late and they let you off" stuff? The two jusrisdictions I worked in (one in Southern, one in Northern Cal) if you were not there for your appearance date and time, then tough crap for you. Instant FTA warrant. No walking in at a slackers hour of 11 am. If you walked in and presented yourself at that time the bailiff calmly hooked you up, read you your rights, stuck you in the box, and you waited until a clear moment for some judge to listen to your sob story. More often than not you got an extra fine added to your already mounting court costs for pulling that late crap. Also, the right to a speedy trial is not damaged even if most municipal level courts don't hear your case for one whole year. And as far as befuddling a judge with "technical" stuff, like your equations and whatnot, the people I saw who tried to pull off that trick usually pissed off the judge and didn't get any reduction or dismissal. Rule of thumb for any and all court appearances is treat the judge and court with respect.
 
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