[Biker75]

I have just sold my new '05 S-works stumpy (sold my 04 expert SJ last week)...now I have the $$ for a 6" bike. I hated to get rid of her, but my riding style really isn't a match for the SJ. I thought she would be the one w/ 5" of travel, but the SJ is still meant to stay on terra firma for the most part(unless you weigh about a buck and a half).
I will miss her tho...

Jdub

 

[damion]

SX time?

What is next? The 6" Enduro PRo, or what? What about the SX line?

 

[Biker75]

Hey Damion,

I'm not sure whats next. I'm gonna test ride the enduro. I really like the new Nomad-I took it for a ride last week. Man, that thing is nice. Pedals great uphill too. For a 6+ bike, it doesn't weigh too much either.
I'm also looking hard @ the Turner 6-pack. The only thing is I cannot find one anywhere to take a test ride on. No one keeps them built up, unless I do the rental thing from Competitive cycle, and that is $200. They are abit heavier too.
I haven't heard much positive stuff about the new enduro, but I know that is just subjective opinions-I may love it. But Specialized is really pricing themselves into a market that they really don't have any business being in. If their frames were hand made in the States by some dude making $70 per hour, I could live w/ that...but they weld em all in Taiwan, where that same $70 probably pays an entire day of a welders wages.
Furthermore, the DHX air shock Spesh is using on all but the top enduro are stripped down versions missing many of the features. But their bike is comprably priced w/ a similarly equipped Turner or SC.
Thats where I am w/ spesh at this point...
I'll post my new ride whatever it may be.

Jdub

 

[plussa]

If their frames were hand made in the States by some dude making $70 per hour, I could live w/ that...but they weld em all in Taiwan, where that same $70 probably pays an entire day of a welders wages.

I'd rather buy a taiwan-made frame than a US-made frame. Everyone knows that products made in taiwan are generally better quality than products made in US, for example cars...

 

[XSL_WiLL]

I'd rather buy a taiwan-made frame than a US-made frame. Everyone knows that products made in taiwan are generally better quality than products made in US, for example cars...

I think you mean Japanese cars. All cars produced in China (assuming the same for Taiwan) suck. Whatever, it's all rice.

Everybody outsources to overseas now. I don't really see any advantage of buying boutique. But for Specialized prices, you can almost build up a boutique frame.

 

[Daffunda]

I think you mean Japanese cars. All cars produced in China (assuming the same for Taiwan) suck. Whatever, it's all rice.

Everybody outsources to overseas now. I don't really see any advantage of buying boutique. But for Specialized prices, you can almost build up a boutique frame.

The newer Hyundais are doing better now, (2005 and up) with great quality, but Kia and Daewoos and older Hyundais suck ass big time.

 

[Biker75]

My point originally being...

...not about the quality of the Taiwainese frames (my 2 spesh's are pretty darn well made) but rather the obvious exploitation of the american bike consumer by spesh.

They put same (or stripped down) versions of components on a $3800 bike with a frame cost to them of probably 1/3 or 1/4 (maybe less, anyone industry insiders lurking here?). The fact that I am looking at a complete Nomad or 6-pack for the same dough just aint right IMO.

So, to me, the botique bike is by far a better value. Also, an American (probably an Oregonian) welding my frame compared to a displaced TW tech worker.

Value being highly subjective of course, but I hope my point is clarified.

The economist in me knows exactly what spesh is doing, and some would say any company would do the same-capitalize on the willingness of the consumer to spend serious $$ on his hobby.
But the value they are providing is no where in line w/ the botique guys anymore. I bought my 2004 Stumpy expert for $1900 20 months ago. That bike now goes for like $2800! And the fact that mountain biking is by nature a 'grass roots' type of industry & how fast information is distrubuted online, I predict this pricing strategy will bite them in their corporate a**es.

JDub

 

[walkman]

Biker75: Do you mean that you get worse components on the spec. bike for the same price as the boutique brands? Or do you mean you think they could price their bikes cheaper since they are spending less to have their frames made/assembled in Taiwan?

What brand do you think is the best value that has the same quality rear suspension as a horst?


I have to add that I don't think Specialized is resting on their laurels and lining their pockets. They are trying to be innovative with their brain technology and pushing the frame materials with the S-works. Also, I really like the test bike program where they are getting rideable bikes into the hands of dealers -- hopefully this will encourage other brands to do likewise.

Plus, they must be doing something right, because the resale value is decent on the specialized.

Hopefully, they don't get as bad as Trek with old carbon technology that they can get away with because they sponsored Lance.

 

[XSL_WiLL]

...not about the quality of the Taiwainese frames (my 2 spesh's are pretty darn well made) but rather the obvious exploitation of the american bike consumer by spesh.

They put same (or stripped down) versions of components on a $3800 bike with a frame cost to them of probably 1/3 or 1/4 (maybe less, anyone industry insiders lurking here?). The fact that I am looking at a complete Nomad or 6-pack for the same dough just aint right IMO.

So, to me, the botique bike is by far a better value. Also, an American (probably an Oregonian) welding my frame compared to a displaced TW tech worker.

Value being highly subjective of course, but I hope my point is clarified.

The economist in me knows exactly what spesh is doing, and some would say any company would do the same-capitalize on the willingness of the consumer to spend serious $$ on his hobby.
But the value they are providing is no where in line w/ the botique guys anymore. I bought my 2004 Stumpy expert for $1900 20 months ago. That bike now goes for like $2800! And the fact that mountain biking is by nature a 'grass roots' type of industry & how fast information is distrubuted online, I predict this pricing strategy will bite them in their corporate a**es.

JDub

Prices are going up signifcantly without any major component changes. From when the P.series came out up to 2005 was a prime example.

Specialized also specs OEM on their bikes. They use thinner rotors, some forks for their bikes have steel steerers instead of the aluminum ones they're supposed to have, special versions of the DHX for the Enduro, etc. All of these steps to cut costs. I think that you're just paying way too much with Specialized.

 

[Biker75]

Biker75: Do you mean that you get worse components on the spec. bike for the same price as the boutique brands? Or do you mean you think they could price their bikes cheaper since they are spending less to have their frames made/assembled in Taiwan?

well, a little bit of both Walkman. Like the post below mentions, I was checking out the new Enduro w/ the DHX 5 air. They had a DHX '3' on one level bike, and a DHX '4' on another. I know their intention is to put a overall strong performing chassis in the hands of a broader spectrum of riders. Nuthin wrong w/ that. But the fact that my complete Turner 6-pack w/ a frame only price of $1900 will cost me about the same as the complete Enduro. And remeber that is w/ spesh's ultra bulk component discount compared to my peice by peice purchases.

I have to add that I don't think Specialized is resting on their laurels and lining their pockets. They are trying to be innovative with their brain technology and pushing the frame materials with the S-works. Also, I really like the test bike program where they are getting rideable bikes into the hands of dealers -- hopefully this will encourage other brands to do likewise.

what comes to mind is Turner's demo program...here's a super small mfg who has several demo centers across the states, including some who mail the bike right to me! I know Kona does same...I imagine theres others.

I see & hear your point, and believe me, I love my spesh bikes-it was my first FS. But IMO they have rapidly overpriced their bikes, which I believe will really hurt them longterm due to alienating existing customers. But I suppose the strategy can work in the longrun: if the American economy tanks hard, they will be in a position to cut their bike prices in half & still sell plenty at a good profit.

Nice chatting w you! Making me think tonite!

Jdub

 

[B.BL]

Specialized also specs OEM on their bikes. They use thinner rotors, some forks for their bikes have steel steerers instead of the aluminum ones they're supposed to have, special versions of the DHX for the Enduro, etc. All of these steps to cut costs. I think that you're just paying way too much with Specialized.

The thinner rotors again... would you mind posting some more information regarding those?

 

[XSL_WiLL]

The thinner rotors again... would you mind posting some more information regarding those?

Got bored at work one day. Took a micrometer and started measuring the thickness of rotors. The Avid rotor on a Specialized FSR XC was thinner than a Avid rotor that a customer swapped out of a new set. Thought it was just a fluke. Measured all the rotors. Specialized seems to have specced thinner rotors. Could have just been that shipment. I haven't been at work lately, so I haven't been running around with a micrometer.

 

[plussa]

...I bought my 2004 Stumpy expert for $1900 20 months ago. That bike now goes for like $2800! And the fact that mountain biking is by nature a 'grass roots' type of industry & how fast information is distrubuted online, I predict this pricing strategy will bite them in their corporate a**es.

Here in northern Europe Specialized bikes have a very good price-performance value... I bought a 2005 SJ FSR 120 Expert last summer for about 2200 US dollars. A similarly equipped Turner would have cost about 4000 US dollars.

If your prices go up, it's not definitely Specialized's fault. The US dollar is quite weak right now and it's more expensive for Specialized to buy those taiwanese frames.

Also remember that boutique brands have no extra value when compared to brands like Specialized om markets outside US, where most mountain bikes are sold. (Except a status value)

The price however vary a lot between different EU countries, I saved over 1200 dollars by ordering the bike from Germany, but it's just like ordering a bike from a different state these days. I live in Finland.

The US market is definitely a big market for Specialized, but you must realize that all major mountain bike companies operate worldwide. I think Specialized is going very strong in Europe right now. You should look at things in a larger perspective. The US is not the center of the universe.

 

[walkman]

Plussa: Not exactly. Because the US subsidizes Taiwan (for cold war historical reasons), they are allowed to tie their exchange rate to the US dollar. So, even though the US dollar has been weak over the last year(s), it doesn't affect the amount of money they pay Taiwan for labor or materials.

Good point on the world market though. Specialized told me they started the demo bike program in Europe. BTW, we may not be the center of the universe, but we are 40% of the world economy. I'm guessing we have 25 states with economies bigger than Finland. ;-)

 

[Daffunda]

Well, for example,

2004 Epic Comp: $2390 MSRP
2005 Epic Comp: $2600 MSRP
2006 Epic Comp: $2800 MSRP

Maybe 2007 Epic Comp: $3100 MSRP.....

 

[Relayden]

I'm an owner of an enduro, I like Spec bikes, a lot, but my point exactly on what has been said here. Do we start a thread on this subject and let the world be aware?