REVIEWS DEALS BIKESHOPS TRAILS

Small changes on my Endo...

2617 Views 31 Replies 12 Participants Last post by nhodge, Jul 23, 2010

rzozaya1969

Discussion Starter · Jul 12, 2010

I installed yesterday needle bearings for my RP23 and the Enduro seals for the Lyric.
I also inverted the shifter/brake levers.

Here are some pics...

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rzozaya1969

Discussion Starter · #2 · Jul 18, 2010

Second ride on this setup.

It's pretty nice, small bump compliance is a little better (hard to improve something on an already awesome bike), and I think that the bearings did pay off. It's not night and day difference, but still something pretty good. It's nice to ride on a magic carpet on the trails.

The enduro seals haven't yet broken in, so there is still some fork stitchion, but not as noticeable as the first time. I hope that by the next ride the stitchion is gone, so I cannot say much about the enduro seals.

The change in lever / shifter position seems to be working fine so far, probably I will keep it, maybe just move the brake levers a little closer.

NoahColorado

· #3 · Jul 19, 2010

Cool, I think I may try the needle bearings too!

FYI, I've heard from Fox, Rock Shox, and Marzocchi that Enduro seals are bad news. We used to install them a lot my shop but have since changed our policy. The durometer is too hard and puts excessive wear on the stanchions.....

Buzz

· #4 · Jul 19, 2010

I second that on the Enduro seals.....bad news. Talking with the guys at Suspensionwerks up here in North Van, they are more of an 'industrial scraper' than a seal. Say goodbye to your stanchions after using these for awhile. The bearing kits on the other hand are quite nice, I have them on a couple of bikes.

Buzz

rzozaya1969

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jul 19, 2010

Thanks about the enduro seals... I'll see about swapping the originals back...

austin_bike

· #6 · Jul 21, 2010

Where did you pick up the needle bearings, how much were they?

HoJo

· #7 · Jul 21, 2010

Needle Bearings for Endo

Hey AB,
I recently installed them on all my bikes including the Endorphin. You can order them direct from RWC website http://www.enduroforkseals.com/.
You will need a lot of the 0.5mm size 8 spacers they sell to fit your Endorphin upper rear shock connection. I sourced some other washers to space the upper shock connection. If I remember correctly it takes 3mm per side on RWC's 40mm needle bearing kit. The lower connection is a perfect fit for the 22mm needle bearing kit with no washers.
I have the tools to press out the old bushing and install the needle bearings.
The service will require beer, but not IPA :nono: , which seems to be a fav of our local MTB crowd.
HoJo

rzozaya1969

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jul 21, 2010

HoJo said:
Hey AB,
I recently installed them on all my bikes including the Endorphin. You can order them direct from RWC website http://www.enduroforkseals.com/.
You will need a lot of the 0.5mm size 8 spacers they sell to fit your Endorphin upper rear shock connection. I sourced some other washers to space the upper shock connection. If I remember correctly it takes 3mm per side on RWC's 40mm needle bearing kit. The lower connection is a perfect fit for the 22mm needle bearing kit with no washers.
I have the tools to press out the old bushing and install the needle bearings.
The service will require beer, but not IPA :nono: , which seems to be a fav of our local MTB crowd.
HoJo

I bought 4 sets of shims, so I have 4 0.5mm shims on each side.

Mrwhlr

· #9 · Jul 21, 2010

I put an RWC kit in the upper mount only, makes a small difference, hopefully the wear life will be longer than the bushing. I doubt installing one in the lower mount will do much.

austin_bike

· #10 · Jul 21, 2010

HoJo said:
Hey AB,
I recently installed them on all my bikes including the Endorphin. You can order them direct from RWC website http://www.enduroforkseals.com/.
You will need a lot of the 0.5mm size 8 spacers they sell to fit your Endorphin upper rear shock connection. I sourced some other washers to space the upper shock connection. If I remember correctly it takes 3mm per side on RWC's 40mm needle bearing kit. The lower connection is a perfect fit for the 22mm needle bearing kit with no washers.
I have the tools to press out the old bushing and install the needle bearings.
The service will require beer, but not IPA :nono: , which seems to be a fav of our local MTB crowd.
HoJo

Thanks, may look into that when I am bored and looking to upgrade something (going back to tubeless this weekend so that should consume some of my time.)

Are you who I think you are? If so, you were completely right about the bike.

Chris2fur

· #11 · Jul 22, 2010

rzozaya1969 said:
Thanks about the enduro seals... I'll see about swapping the originals back...

Since you started another thread about this which I responded to, I'm sure you realize by now that you should not switch back based on what those two uninformed posters have advised.

For others reading this thread I would direct you here: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=636471

NoahColorado

· #12 · Jul 22, 2010

Sorry, my uninformation was based on what I've heard first-hand from Nick Delauder from Fox, Ronnie and JP from Marzocchi, and Jeremiah Boobar, brand manager of Rock Shox.

Not to say they aren't trying to sell their seals, just like you're trying to sell yours.

But don't call me uninformed, thanks. People can make up their own mind, but as a shop manager I can't install your seals anymore due to warranty liability.

Chris2fur

· #13 · Jul 22, 2010

NoahColorado said:
Sorry, my uninformation was based on what I've heard first-hand from Nick Delauder from Fox, Ronnie and JP from Marzocchi, and Jeremiah Boobar, brand manager of Rock Shox.

Not to say they aren't trying to sell their seals, just like you're trying to sell yours.

But don't call me uninformed, thanks. People can make up their own mind, but as a shop manager I can't install your seals anymore due to warranty liability.

Would you prefer MISinformed? You stated that our seals put excessive wear on the stanchions. That is patently false. What a joke it is to say you "heard first hand." The fact that you are hearing it makes it second hand. You were happy to install them until you "heard" they were bad. Are you certain that the names you mentioned actually accused our seals of damaging forks?

NoahColorado

· #14 · Jul 22, 2010

Chris2fur said:
Would you prefer MISinformed? You stated that our seals put excessive wear on the stanchions. That is patently false. What a joke it is to say you "heard first hand." The fact that you are hearing it makes it second hand. You were happy to install them until you "heard" they were bad. Are you certain that the names you mentioned actually accused our seals of damaging forks?

Well I didn't hear it through the grapevine, those experts told me themselves - I didn't hear it from someone else who heard it form someone else.

I heard it first from Fox, so I then asked the opinion of my friends at Marzocchi who agreed. A couple weeks ago I was riding with Boobar and picked his brain on the matter. He also agreed.

Like I said, we used to install them a lot. But based on the feedback I got from those folks we have decided to not use/recommend them any longer.

My current opinion is:
-While the seals themselves may not damage the stanchions (like guns don't kill people....), their inability to purge oil and contaminates may lead to premature stanchion wear if the user isn't adamant about servicing their equipment and putting on Finish Line Stanchion lube on a regular basis (like you recommend). Your company is called Real World Cycling and in the real world people don't always appropriately service their stuff.
-Going against what the manufacturer recommendations could put me in a pickle if any of my customers have problems with their forks and a warranty isn't honored because of the use of aftermarket seals/wipers.
-I don't really see many problems with the OEM seals (of course my experience is based on my own desert locale, which perhaps isn't as brutal on seals/wipers as wet climates) and thus find no good reason to recommend another route. I will say that our moondust 'round these parts tends to cause a bit of stiction, which I think could be exacerbated by a seal/wiper that traps contaminates and doesn't lube the stanchions without the use of secondary lube.

I don't have anything against your company, and I think you guys have come up with some pretty innovative stuff. But in this instance I don't agree with you...or appreciate your condescension. :thumbsup:

Thanks

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Chris2fur

· #15 · Jul 22, 2010

NoahColorado said:
Well I didn't hear it through the grapevine, those experts told me themselves - I didn't hear it from someone else who heard it form someone else.

I heard it first from Fox, so I then asked the opinion of my friends at Marzocchi who agreed. A couple weeks ago I was riding with Boobar and picked his brain on the matter. He also agreed.

Like I said, we used to install them a lot. But based on the feedback I got from those folks we have decided to not use/recommend them any longer.

My current opinion is:
-While the seals themselves may not damage the stanchions (like guns don't kill people....), their inability to purge oil and contaminates may lead to premature stanchion wear if the user isn't adamant about servicing their equipment and putting on Finish Line Stanchion lube on a regular basis (like you recommend). Your company is called Real World Cycling and in the real world people don't always appropriately service their stuff.
-Going against what the manufacturer recommendations could put me in a pickle if any of my customers have problems with their forks and a warranty isn't honored because of the use of aftermarket seals/wipers.
-I don't really see many problems with the OEM seals (of course my experience is based on my own desert locale, which perhaps isn't as brutal on seals/wipers as wet climates) and thus find no good reason to recommend another route. I will say that our moondust 'round these parts tends to cause a bit of stiction, which I think could be exacerbated by a seal/wiper that traps contaminates and doesn't lube the stanchions without the use of secondary lube.

I don't have anything against your company, and I think you guys have come up with some pretty innovative stuff. But in this instance I don't agree with you...or appreciate your condescension. :thumbsup:

Thanks

If "condescension" bothers you, I hope nobody ever posts an online smear that can actually cause you financial harm. You'd really get your feelings hurt. All the above that you posted is opinion and conjecture without one single physical example of damage to a fork cause by our seals. Such allegations should never be made without actual proof. In my dealings with Fox they have continually acknowledged that there is no way our seals can damage a properly anodized stanchion tube. They have vehemently denied that they would ever tell a customer such a thing, yet here we are.

Mrwhlr

· #16 · Jul 23, 2010

Chris2fur said:
They have vehemently denied that they would ever tell a customer such a thing, yet here we are.

Are they lying?

NoahColorado

· #17 · Jul 23, 2010

Chris2fur said:
If "condescension" bothers you, I hope nobody ever posts an online smear that can actually cause you financial harm. You'd really get your feelings hurt. All the above that you posted is opinion and conjecture without one single physical example of damage to a fork cause by our seals. Such allegations should never be made without actual proof. In my dealings with Fox they have continually acknowledged that there is no way our seals can damage a properly anodized stanchion tube. They have vehemently denied that they would ever tell a customer such a thing, yet here we are.

I'm no stranger to internet smears, believe me. I certainly didn't intend to "smear" your product, just relaying information and providing my opinion (which, in regards to damage, is admittedly based on the qualified opinions of others) to my friends on this forum. AS for first hand experience, I don't know how to photographically document stiction. I'm sorry if my differing opinion hurts your sales, but I have to look after my own and shape my shop policy on products I can wholeheartedly endorse.

Sounds like your beef is with the manufacturers and their techs. As for my opinion, the fact that it's based on the unanimous agreement of the three leading suspension manufacturers makes it at least legitimate, though understandably not particularly palatable to you.

Cheers, that's all for me.

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Chris2fur

· #18 · Jul 23, 2010

NoahColorado said:
I'm no stranger to internet smears, believe me. I certainly didn't intend to "smear" your product, just relaying information and providing my opinion (which, in regards to damage, is admittedly based on the qualified opinions of others) to my friends on this forum. AS for first hand experience, I don't know how to photographically document stiction. I'm sorry if my differing opinion hurts your sales, but I have to look after my own and shape my shop policy on products I can wholeheartedly endorse.

Sounds like your beef is with the manufacturers and their techs. As for my opinion, the fact that it's based on the unanimous agreement of the three leading suspension manufacturers makes it at least legitimate, though understandably not particularly palatable to you.

Cheers, that's all for me.

Please don't change the subject to stiction. We are talking about your "opinion" that Enduro seals will damage stanchion tube coatings, which neither you nor any of your so called "experts" has any physical evidence of. It is a smear.

Chris2fur

· #19 · Jul 23, 2010

Mrwhlr said:
Are they lying?

I'm not sure what else to conclude. When confronted, they deny, yet we continue to get reports that Fox is saying our seals will damage their forks.

iridetitus

· #20 · Jul 23, 2010

fwiw, i've been through two fox forks that needed new stanchions within 2-3 years of occasional (avg 2X per week, maybe 3, in dry conditions 99% of the time) as they had developed wear spots. they both (all four stanchions) had enduro seals. they were both f models, an 80x and a 100x. this could have all been coincidence - i have no idea and assert neither one way nor the other.

i've also heard from fox that enduro seals were no good for their forks. i took it as their way of wanting to get the sale, but i'm paranoid like that.

ymmv...

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