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Actually it's the other way around. The people that * and moan are the rippers that are too busy riding to get involved. It's easier to complain.

Regarding your point that you can't make everybody happy, I had this same discussion with the guy responsible for much of Prescott's trail progress in the last decade and his response was, "I don't engage with the public". The crickets will always chirp no matter what you do.
I disagree. A person's involvement is not related to their level of moaning in my experience. Some of the most productive trail building people in Flagstaff are among the loudest complainers, which is good because it serves to get attention and funding. Plenty of people complain and do nothing as well. That results in changes too, for better or worse.
 

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I disagree. A person's involvement is not related to their level of moaning in my experience. Some of the most productive trail building people in Flagstaff are among the loudest complainers, which is good because it serves to get attention and funding. Plenty of people complain and do nothing as well. That results in changes too, for better or worse.
Ha, remind me again who the trail builders are in Flagstaff doing the most complaining? The only way to get things done here is to build a partnership and get to work. Complaining doesn't get grants or funding. Perhaps the word you mean is persistence.
 

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Ha, remind me again who the trail builders are in Flagstaff doing the most complaining? The only way to get things done here is to build a partnership and get to work. Complaining doesn't get grants or funding. Perhaps the word you mean is persistence.
Oh come on, you know better than that. FBO and CTR do a great job of constructively complaining that gets result. Fortunately, some of the folks we work with at the FS actually know how to listen and the people complaining know how to put the angst into the dirt when projects get approved. Pretend it's all rainbows and unicorns if you must, but it isn't reality.
 

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Oh come on, you know better than that. FBO and CTR do a great job of constructively complaining that gets result. Fortunately, some of the folks we work with at the FS actually know how to listen and the people complaining know how to put the angst into the dirt when projects get approved. Pretend it's all rainbows and unicorns if you must, but it isn't reality.
I'm the trail coordinator for FBO and have been filling that role including coordinating volunteer events for 5 years now. I also helped do the layout on the new Heart trail and found the money to pay for it. So yeah I do know better than that. My point was that the people that are quick to complain about not having challenging trails are those that do not get involved. Anyhow, I think we are saying the same thing just differently. However, most of the people doing the complaining that i know don't show up for volunteer events or do anything except....complain. I doubt it's any different with CTR.

With regards to the land manager they are fully aware why user-created social trails exist and that for the most part they haven't built or created trails to provide the user experience advanced riders are looking for. Complaining about it doesn't hammer home the point any better. There's nothing in the fs handbook that says they have to give mtn bikers what they want. That's the reality. And for sure stupid videos showing roosting doesn't help alter that reality or perception of what good stewards we are with the land manager or other user groups.
 

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I would argue they step in long before that... typically when their is an opportunity to tax and grow their fiefdoms. It really has no basis in user behavior. Every user group moans about one another. Within every user group is a spectrum of opinions on what is “acceptable”.

Once you accept that none of that matters and you can’t make all the people happy all the time, focusing on design/built solutions is the only productive use of time. I thank the highly talented people out there ripping the trail and demonstrating what is possible, it only serves to strengthen the argument for directional tech trails and more of them. If you ride like a pansy and moan about the people who can throw it down, don’t be suprised if your favorite trail becomes IMBAfied and ADA accessible at some point.
I really don’t try to make others happy. Especially as I age. But why give them a target. The point is that locking the rear wheel blows out trails faster, causes erosion, and gives others reason to limit our access which has happened often. Just ask the local trail stewards. This hasn’t changed since mountain biking started taking off in the 80s.

Define riding like a pansy. There are many top riders that feel dragging their wheel on public land when not racing is destructive.

And if you’re not a full time sponsored rider that doesn’t have to have a second job, then at best you’re a big fish in a big pond.

Trails become IMBAfied when the trail degrades to a point it’s not sustainable and there is pronounced damage to the landscape. Skidding accelerates the process.



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How'd we get onto the trail advocacy tangent? Let's get back to railing on douchebag behavior and how to effectively reduce it.
I coach fall and spring youth (5-6 and 8-10) groups and my first practice for every group is always about braking. We let the kids get in skids (off trail) at the beginning of the first practice to get it out of their system then go into drills and games on braking before hitting out for a longer ride. If we can make braking and not skidding fun then it it might stick with a few of them. We (coaches) will then chat up the parents at the end to go over what we practiced and ask the parents (many who ride) to help reinforce the lesson when they ride with their kiddo next. It is the only way I feel like I can make an impact on trail etiquette and reduce douchebaggery for the future.

As for adults....I have given up on that age group.
 

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Trails become IMBAfied when the trail degrades to a point it’s not sustainable and there is pronounced damage to the landscape. Skidding accelerates the process.
Interesting perspective. Care to explain how freshly constructed trails are IMBAfied from the start? Sometimes I think the trail designs are more focused on creating continual maintenance opportunities than providing the best trail experience, hence skid ready trails. Lots of fresh ones built (legally by the Parks Dept) on South Mountain the past 18 months... Had they been designed and constructed according to the needs of the riders and hikers, there would be fewer issues such as blind 90 degree off camber corners or sections which do not drain properly, which I doubt enhances any trail user's experience. Sheeple need to wake up and realize these problems can be solved before they become reality. Flow, grade reversals, tech lines and tech bypasses, rated directional trails are but a few of the tools missing from the box. But bad actors skidding a little is the threat to humanity. Mmmkay.
 

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I coach fall and spring youth (5-6 and 8-10) groups and my first practice for every group is always about braking. We let the kids get in skids (off trail) at the beginning of the first practice to get it out of their system then go into drills and games on braking before hitting out for a longer ride. If we can make braking and not skidding fun then it it might stick with a few of them. We (coaches) will then chat up the parents at the end to go over what we practiced and ask the parents (many who ride) to help reinforce the lesson when they ride with their kiddo next. It is the only way I feel like I can make an impact on trail etiquette and reduce douchebaggery for the future.

As for adults....I have given up on that age group.
Excellent, keep up the good work. Teach em young and we will have less "skidiots" on the trails and hopefully more trail users willing to confront the bad behavior they witness and provide education to those practicing it.
 

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I'm the trail coordinator for FBO and have been filling that role including coordinating volunteer events for 5 years now. I also helped do the layout on the new Heart trail and found the money to pay for it. So yeah I do know better than that. My point was that the people that are quick to complain about not having challenging trails are those that do not get involved. Anyhow, I think we are saying the same thing just differently. However, most of the people doing the complaining that i know don't show up for volunteer events or do anything except....complain. I doubt it's any different with CTR.
I'm calling BS on you. If you've been to trail building events in Flag you have surely heard those of us working the dirt complaining about the all aspects of trail design and construction, well until the pizza and beer arrive :)
 

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Well, one good thing about this conversation is you reminded me that I haven't donated to my local trail-maintenance group for a long time. Taking care of that now....
 

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Interesting perspective. Care to explain how freshly constructed trails are IMBAfied from the start? Sometimes I think the trail designs are more focused on creating continual maintenance opportunities than providing the best trail experience, hence skid ready trails. Lots of fresh ones built (legally by the Parks Dept) on South Mountain the past 18 months... Had they been designed and constructed according to the needs of the riders and hikers, there would be fewer issues such as blind 90 degree off camber corners or sections which do not drain properly, which I doubt enhances any trail user's experience. Sheeple need to wake up and realize these problems can be solved before they become reality. Flow, grade reversals, tech lines and tech bypasses, rated directional trails are but a few of the tools missing from the box. But bad actors skidding a little is the threat to humanity. Mmmkay.
Never understood how calling mothers, fathers, preachers, landscapers, etc names who have potential connections gets you anywhere.

Anyhow, you’re a trail builder so you do have legitimacy. I support efforts and yes I’m willing to help build double black in Flag.

May be a silly question, but what about Williams?


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Anyhow, you’re a trail builder so you do have legitimacy. I support efforts and yes I’m willing to help build double black in Flag.
Don't kid yourself, I don't have any legitimacy :)
More trails in and near population centers + better design = fewer problems
 

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I'm calling BS on you. If you've been to trail building events in Flag you have surely heard those of us working the dirt complaining about the all aspects of trail design and construction, well until the pizza and beer arrive :)
And how is that working out for you? Are you getting the trails you want? Glad you liked the pizza. Not sure we'll be doing food this year.
 

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The Kaibab NF has a new Rec Staff Officer. Maybe things will be turning around there. Historically it seems like equestrian use has been the focus.
Money talks. They have money (equestrians)
 

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Money talks. They have money (equestrians)
I hear this argument a lot. The ohv crowd has more state and federal money than all trail user groups combined, yet we get screwed on recreational trails pretty frequently. The equestrian community, an activity declining in total number of participants per capita compared to almost everything, has immense political clout. That and they have the romantic western stereotype tied to their activity. It doesn't matter that they will chew thru tread faster than anything on a non-motorized trail, even those fancy electric dirtbikes. So money doesn't talk, but horses apparently do.

Meanwhile, we have people in pissing contests about the tragedy of railing corners and controlled skidding ;)
 
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