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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well guys, got the Intense 6.6 built up. Time to do some seat testing. This is going to be interesting. There are some differences between the build on the two bikes that will have impacts on things like handling and ride, so I want to start this off by saying, this is not about which is a better bike.

As far as I am concerned they are BOTH awesome bikes, but they are two different takes on the same approach. How do you build an effective full on heavy duty trailbike that is both light enough to climb anything and heavy/stout enough to keep a line in the knarliest of downhill runs?

Foes has embraced the Single Pivot Platform Shock design. It's a simple design and has the advantage of perhaps having more stiffness in the rear end. Some people who own Intense 6.6 bikes have noted a hint of rear triangle shift/flex. It's something I'll be very sensitive to. Having ridden Foes for many years, the stiffness of the rear end is something I've grown to really appreciate.

Intense has taken the approach of providing a little more usable travel and implemented the highly acclaimed Virtual Pivot Point linkage to keep the bike planted on climbs. It should allow a wider range of adjustment on the platform to provide a little more active ride. At least that's what I'm anticipating.

My first spin around the block on asphalt has revealed some hints of a difference. The 6.6 feels a little more active than the FXR but at the same time a little harsher when it comes to the ride quality. All of this is so preliminary because I haven't adjusted the shock at all, so please take that comment with a grain of healthy sckepticism.

However, my gut feel is that the new Air Curnutt has so much volume in the shock at low pressure it is able to react quicker to road cracks and the other little road irregularities that would activate the suspension. It feels a little softer. That's what I've been trying to relate to folks in my other posts. The new Air Curnutt really does have wonderfull small bump compliance while still maintaining the platform of all platforms. Hopefully, I'll be able to adjust the Fox DHX Air to match the Curnutt.

Now to some technical details. Both bikes came in right at 32lbs, so weight will not have an impact here. They both have Magura Wotans on the front end so the fork isn't an issue unless it doesn't play nice with the shock, which I don't anticipate. The Intense is riding on 2.5" WTB Wierwolf's which will slow down the steering. The FXR is riding 2.3" Conti Verts.

This point is interesting, because the FXR didn't seem to handle the Wierwolfs well at all. The steering felt like crap compared to the 2.3 Verts. That's one reason I switched them. The other issue was the rear tire rubbed pretty good at times when really railing it. Bottomline is the Foes FXR is more geared to running 2.3" rubber than 2.5" rubber.

Conversely, the Intense seems to handle the Wierwolf's fairly well. Again, my only reference at this point is some street riding, but looking at clearances and such, Intense definetly has 2.5" rubber in mind for the 6.6.

Brakes on the FXR are Hope M4's...some of the best out there in my book. The 6.6 got hooked up with what I had laying around. I wanted to do XT four pots both front and rear but the Magura only takes post mount so the ISO XT front had to be replaced by a Hayes Mag. I think braking will be decent though and shouldn't have a big impact.

Both are using SRAM 11-34 Cassettes and chain, with XO Shifting, XO rear D and Shimano Front D. Both have XTR Cranks, so transmission should be identical. I guess other than tires and the shock, they are about as close as I could get them.

Let's have some fun!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
First Ride feedback...

Got out on the 6.6 this past weekend and it was fun. We did a 2 Hr romp around a trail system here called Mars Court. It's pretty much meandering single track with what I would call one long sustained climb with a bit of technical terrain and a short downhill with some switch backs and ledge drops. No where near as abusive as Otero/Tunnel or Chamyoso but a good test none the less.

First off I checked the Air Pressue in the main spring and found this frame must have been owned by a real Clyde. The pressure was sitting at 250PSI. Given that I weigh about 170lbs and the buzz on the DHX Air is to run 15% more than your body weight, I dropped the Spring Pressure to 200PSI. I checked the sag and it was right around 25% so I guess good to go. It felt tons smoother on the street. Sucked up the road cracks with no where near the harshness I felt before. However, it also felt more active.

I didn't have time to mess with the Platform Pressure so I left it where it was. That will be the next ride setting I play with. I do have the Platform clicker set at 2 clicks off of full on.

As to the ride it felt really nice. A little softer than I am use to with the Foes, but nice none the less. It really is a lot more active. Now some may say well your dealing with "Partially Active" vs "Fully Active" suspension. That may have been the case years ago, but with Platform shocks on most four bar linkage bikes these days, I would counter that everything is Partially Active. Ok, with an RP23 you can actually shut off the platform. You win.

The point is, the Intense is more Active than the Foes, which makes sense being that the Foes is a SP and has a high degree of Platform. That extra level of Plushness was nice on most of the trail. However, I did detect a little more wheel slip sensitivity during climbs than on the Foes, especially out of the saddle. So like I said to Jayem, it's all a compromise. Admittedly though, I need to work with the platform more.

The other tendencies I noted are the bike does squat a bit when railing into a corner. Not that it's a big deal, but it's just different than I'm use to. Again Sports Car vs. Cadillac. I myself perfer a stiffer feel while cornering. I just feel more in control and like having instant steering response rather than getting wrapped up in the G-wizz G-out factor.

I also noted some brake jacking when really getting on the brakes. It actually was cool, because on the hairpin turns during the downhill, I could chomp the rear brake and the bike would allow me to hop the rear and hit the turn. One of those things that people would think would be a nuisense and I actually found it kinda cool. I just wonder though when you get into really rocky terrain how planted the rear end will feel. More riding needed there.

The WTB Weirwolf 2.5 Tires felt a little sluggish in the corners, but as I said previously, the 6.6 seems to handle them a little better than the Foes. It's nice having large volume tires for a smoother ride, but I personally am more in tune with a set of 2.3's. I just like the lighter steering input.

Bottomline, I felt the 6.6 rode really nice. I liked the plushness on the trail in general and I could actually sense the extra 1/2"-3/4" of travel. With 200PSI in the chamber I still blew through the whole travel though so I may need to firm things up there. I also feel I need to work with the Platform some more to see if I can stiffen the ride a bit in the corners and improve the climbing feel. Once I get it there I'll take it on the thrashing test and see how it handles really rough terrain.

More fun to follow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Simple isn't the first thing that comes to mind...

Well I rumaged around on the Intense Forum and it seems there's quite a bit of discussion around the DHX Air and VPP. General consensus is that the Mid-Stroke on the DHX is somewhat mushy. I felt that a bit, but I'm going to see if I can get it dialed. The other consensus is when you do get it dialed it is a really sweet ride. I got the sense that if you weigh over 200lbs you're probably best on the DHX Coil or a Zoch Roco. It seems the VPP Linkage can overwhelm the DHX and blow through the travel pretty easy. I also got a sense of that.

Suffice it to say that throwing 80PSI in the Main and 70PSI in the Platform on the Air Curnutt is about as easy as a setup gets. But I'm going to hang in there with this and keep an open mind.

Here's some setup info from E2 at Competative Cyclist that I'm following:

"....try running 30psi. above your weight w/ gear in the main chamber, and about 15-20psi less than your rider weight in the boost valve, turn boost valve in 2 complete turns, run no pro pedal, and set rebound 4 or 5 clicks from fully Slow. I weigh about 160lbs. run 190psi in the main and about 145 in the boost with no propedal, the bike is able to get full travel off of 4-5 footers (see the new 6.6 action thread) and pedals great, I trail ride every morning about 5 miles and take some mid size drops and jumps and usually the 0 ring is at the bottom of the shock shaft end of ride. Ride On- E2"
 

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Great write up so far Doug. So what prompted the comparison? I'm in about the same place right now and really look forward to your subsequent thoughts between the two. I've had my eye on the FXR for a while now, but just got offered sponsorship from Intense so I need to make a decision here pretty quick. (I've been riding a Fly for the last three years now and really like the feeling of the Foes single pivot design. It's easy to maintain and there's very minimal rear end flex.)

I really need a lightweight mid travel bike and the FXR, the 6.6, along with the Turner RFX have been square in the cross hairs. Keep us posted!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Hey Surf...just checking out the ride. It's tough to critique a bike in a parking lot test or riding a friends. You build one up and you can become a little more intimate. I'm not sure the Intense is going to knock me off my Foes at this point, but I'll let you know a bit more after tonight's ride (if we don't get rained out).

I'm also thinking of doing the same kind of test with a Nicolai Helius FR....if I can afford it!!! It would be neat to have a good comparison of SP, VPP and Horst. I'd say these three bikes are about as good as it gets.

What no RFX you might say? Well I'm just not big on Rocker Link (ICT) suspension designs (As opposed to "Swing Links"). The shock sits right down in the mud zone, even though some would argue that the CG is also lower. And somehow I have this mis-conceived bias about a shock being acted upon directly by the swing arm rather than through a rocker. (That's why I'm somewhat partial to SP)

That being said, I rode a friends 2006 RFX in Moab and it was very plush and smooth. Almost too much so. Great bike, just not my cup of tea.

Stay tuned....:thumbsup:
 

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Since you have the same fork on each bike, how about measuring the geometry of each with forks at full extension?

It would be interesting see how the numbers on head angle, bottom bracket height, and seat tube angle compare.

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Stress said:
Since you have the same fork on each bike, how about measuring the geometry of each with forks at full extension?

It would be interesting see how the numbers on head angle, bottom bracket height, and seat tube angle compare.

Thanks
Good idea Stress...let me look into that this weekend. :thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
It's getting there!!!

Well Folks,

Got out last night and had a nice climb up a smooth single track before we ran into caliche mud and had to call it quits. However, I was able to get out some this morning and rode the Pino Loop I've mentioned in the Air Curnutt thread.

I've got the DHX a lot better dialed in now. It's feeling good. I'm running 210PSI in the Main, 160PSI in the Boost with 2 1/2 Turns in on the Chamber (about 2 lines showing) and 1 1/2 turns in on the Pro-pedal.

I'm using full travel so the VPP does overwhelm the DHX Air. Note I'm at 210PSI and max on the shock is 250PSI so you can get a sense that this shock/linkage maxes out at probably 200lbs body weight (I weigh 175lbs). Definitely not a Clyde bike without a Coil.

I'm getting a much better sense of the bike. It really is comfortable under power and the extra 3/4" of travel is nice. I have the Platform setup so that it is pretty steady on the climbs and it is efficient. I may want to increase the Platform some to see how a firmer ride feels. It does bob when you get out of the saddle and hammer. It's not as stable in this regard as the Foes. The Foes is an awesome climbing rig, but I think I've hammered that home to folks.

Increasing the platform has also stablized the bike during cornering. It doesn't sag as much when railing, but again, the Foes feels a little firmer in this regard.

This bike will absorb better than the Foes though, but there are some caveats to this statement. It reminds me of my Titus Super-moto with the DHX Coil. The SM weighed 39lbs and was too heavy for my liking but it felt like a pillow when you really launched it. The 6.6 feels a lot like that and only weighs 32lbs.

However, the Foes has better control upon landing. I think some of this may be linkage related and this may be what the Intense folks have acknowledged as being rear end flex. I'm not so sure it's flex or just linkage shift, but the Foes inspires more confidence when you stick it. Yeah it's not as comfortable/soft or as "bottomless" but it sticks a landing and goes where it's pointed. The Intense requires you to "gather yourself" a bit on landing.

As to rock gardens, again I'm getting a sense that the Intense is a little looser in the rear. It absorbs the terrain beautifully, soft and gracious through the rough. But it doesn't hold a line quite as good as the Foes.

In closing I want to just mention one thing...please understand that any type of test like this is very subjective. I'm trying to express nuiances between two really fine rides. 99% of most people would hop on either one of these bikes and gush over how sweet they were. But as I mentioned to Guru, when you can spend more time on a bike getting "intimate" with the setup, you can begin to feel some subtle differences.

I'm going to put the Intense into the shop this weekend for some dial in of the shifting and a post build tune up. The Foes has been getting worked on this week to tune it up after the Colorado beating (brakes got a little fried).

I'm going to ride the Foes up in Santa Fe on Sunday doing the Windsor Trail. So that will be a good test to jump back off the Intense on. Unfortunetly, my buddy who's training for Leadville will have his brand new 24.5lb SWorks Stumpy to kick my ass up the climb with. But I think he'll be feeling me breathing on him when we stomp back down. ;)

More fun to follow....
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Surfinguru said:
Great write up so far Doug. So what prompted the comparison? I'm in about the same place right now and really look forward to your subsequent thoughts between the two. I've had my eye on the FXR for a while now, but just got offered sponsorship from Intense so I need to make a decision here pretty quick. (I've been riding a Fly for the last three years now and really like the feeling of the Foes single pivot design. It's easy to maintain and there's very minimal rear end flex.)

I really need a lightweight mid travel bike and the FXR, the 6.6, along with the Turner RFX have been square in the cross hairs. Keep us posted!
Surf...not sure what type of racing you're doing (4X or DH). I think the Foes is a better 4X bike and if you got the FXR 4X with Air, you'd be smiling towards the podium.

If it's true DH it gets tougher. If you're getting an Intense for free I'd say go for it. However, if it's just some expense $$$ and a bit of contigency it gets tough. The Foes tracks better I think, but it's a little firmer ride even with the Air Curnutt. Thing is I feel faster on it, even through the rough. And it is stiffer in the rear. Again, it's that control/connected thing.

If your handling skills are good and the Intense sponsership is worth it, I'd say get the Intense and put a DHX Coil or a Roco on it and rode it like you stole it. Either way you're gonna love these bikes. :thumbsup:

Good luck Bro!!!
 

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Hey Doug, most of our courses are more Super-D in nature than DH. I'll be moving up to Expert in the fall and I'm just going to get spanked trying to ride a 44lb, 8" travel bike against guys that are riding 30lb, 6" travel bikes. Additionally, the majority of our daily rides require pedaling to the top to get the decent and a 6-7" ride will allow me to hit 90% of the stuff that's out there. (That's why I was looking at the FXR and the 6.6)

My other issues are cockpit feel and rear triangle flex. I really like to be "down in the bike" when I ride. I can't stand feeling like I'm perched on top of the thing ala road bike feel. Regarding rear triangle flex, I used to ride a Trek Liquid a few years back and man, talk about a wet noodle. I constantly thought I had a flat or something - not very inspiring to say the least. Now having been spoiled with how little flex the Fly has, I'm hyper aware of it when I feel it.

I really wanted to go with Foes, but they're not accepting sponsorship apps until November and on Saturday I took a major header, separated my shoulder, level 2 concussion AND bent the rear triangle on the Fly. Being a grassroots racer makes it hard to replace things without the discounts that come with sponsorship, so I'm going to go with Intense and see how it goes. With that said, I'm still very interested to hear your ongoing thoughts regarding the differences of between the two bikes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
You haven't made a bad decision...what shock you gonna go for??? I guess it depends on how much you weigh, but you might want to look at a DHX Coil or Roco even if it does add a pound or so.

Sorry to hear about the wreck....heal up Bro.
 

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Get the Helius

Dropin%Dug said:
I'm also thinking of doing the same kind of test with a Nicolai Helius FR....if I can afford it!!! It would be neat to have a good comparison of SP, VPP and Horst. I'd say these three bikes are about as good as it gets.
Stay tuned....:thumbsup:
Just want to throw my total support behind you getting the Helius. Been considering one for many months (not easy to get in the U.S., never seen one) and your feedback would be very interesting and helpful. I'm 100% for you getting one!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks Daddy-O....It's gonna happen. Problem is it will probably be Nov. before I have the frame. Unfortunately any ride comparison won't happen until spring more than likely, but maybe I'll take it to Phoenix and do a National Trail test with it.

It's important I think to get on it as soon as I break down the Intense to keep the ride fresh in my seat and my mind. ;)
 

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i have a Foes Inferno and a Nomad w/ IXS-6 shock , I love my Inferno but the NOMAD is far better bike than the Inferno on tight tech downhills , acelerating on the climbs , on high speed descends or over rock gardens . I always give a ride on the Foes INFERNO and my buddies love it cause they can smash me but when I back to NOMAD I say "dam how can this bike can be so good"
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Reaching some conclusions...

Well...got out on the Foes the other weekend and have gotten the 6.6 out a couple times as well. The Foes handled the Windsor trail in Santa Fe as good as it gets. It was a wet rainy ride, so the downhill run was more of a waltz. However, it climbed with it's usually grace and it felt nice to be back on it after riding the 6.6 for a while. And yes, my buddy kicked my butt on that 24.5lb Stumpy....what a sweet climbing rig that is!!! :thumbsup:

Getting back on the 6.6 was interesting. I'm really warming up to this bike. I have the main air pressure set now at 220psi and it seems about right as far as firmness is concerned. But again, with a 250psi limitation in the Main Spring, anyone over 200lbs or doing big hits needs to be on a coil.

The point to take away here, is the leverage of the VPP seems to be pretty aggressive. It easily overwhelms the shock and blowing through full travel is easy. That being said the bike has never felt like it's really bottomed. I know it has, but I guess I'm saying it seems to ramp up to the bottom of travel in a very soft forgiving manner. Similar to the FXR, but the FXR is a little firmer at the end of stroke. Yeah with the XTD I should be able to dial it in a little better, but I feel the 6.6 has a little more "bottomless" feel to it. It has more depth of absorbtion than the FXR. Of course, the extra 3/4" of travel helps, but I think a lot of it also has to do with the progressivness of the VPP suspension. The single pivot FXR even with the higher volume Air Curnutt probably ramps up more than the VPP.

However, as I've mentioned before, I think the FXR sticks a drop better than the VPP and even with some additional air in the DHX I still feel that way. The VPP is softer, but the rear end definitely has some linkage twist or movement in it compared to the Foes Single Pivot. The Foes is so damn solid that when it comes down, that's where it's going. The 6.6 is little more vague in this area. Some of this may also be the absorption. Softness is good for landing a jump, but it also takes away some of the feel of control.

The Intense as it's set now is really confortable to ride for the long haul. Really active, plush as a pillow. I'm not sure it climbs as well as the FXR, but its real smooth going up rugged ledgy climbs. The VPP Claim of backing away rearward on a climbing ledge hit seems to be reality, You really can feel it move rearward and soften the transition up onto a ledge.

The FXR seems to have a little different approach to ledge climbs. It seems to react to the bump and stiffen up as it raises in the rear. As I said before, it seems a little more progessive than the VPP. Point is, the FXR maintains traction as well or better than the VPP and in a little different manner.

The advantage the FXR has is you can really get out of the saddle and lay down some smack on a technical climb. When you do that the bike stiffens and just digs in. It's headed up and there isn't any wheel spin or hop that's stopping it. You feel very in control and able to stab those tough sections. Put your head in it, hammer the cranks and the Foes delivers.

Can't say the same about the VPP. It is meant to be ridden seated and it does that well. Get on the nose of the saddle and crank your legs off. The VPP will do its job. But if you get caught out and need to lay some smack on it, it will sag and bounce out. I've spun it up a number of times. However, to be fully honest, it handles out of the seat climbs in an acceptable, if not note worthy, manner.

The 6.6 seems to handle the geo adjustment of the Wotan well. Going from 160mm to 120mm doesn't seem to bother it much and it helps to keep the weight on the front during a climb. Just what the Wotan Travel Adjust is suppose to do. The steering seems to stay pretty neutral with the 2.5 tires. This is something the Foes didn't except. The geometry shift seems to be OK with the 2.3's on the FXR but with the 2.5's it was horrible. The steering really went south when you shortened up the travel with the bigger tires on it.

Bottom line is each of these bikes has their own character. VPP is a nice design but it isn't my cup of tea. I prefer a little firmer feel and I like the stiffness and control the FXR seems to have dialed in. I'm going to keep riding the Intense for a couple more months and will probably play around a bit with the suspension settings. See how more Platform feels.

I have put in an order for a Nicolai Helius FR Frame and will compare that to the Foes. I'm hoping the Nicolai with a 12mm Maxle in the rear will provide the stiffness that the Foes exhibits and have a little more plush progessive feel without the aggressiveness of the VPP linkage. I'll be running a 2008 Fox DHX on it and that should allow me to dial in more platform and then release it when the going gets rough. Could be the best of all worlds, but we shall see. Stay tuned.....;)
 

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Dropin%Dug said:
Getting back on the 6.6 was interesting. I'm really warming up to this bike. I have the main air pressure set now at 220psi and it seems about right as far as firmness is concerned. But again, with a 250psi limitation in the Main Spring, anyone over 200lbs or doing big hits needs to be on a coil.

The point to take away here, is the leverage of the VPP seems to be pretty aggressive. It easily overwhelms the shock and blowing through full travel is easy...
That shouldn't really be the fault of the 6.6, more the fault of the DHX Air. Many of us that used the DHX air quickly switched it out due to how easily it blew through the mid-stroke. We also found that we had to use excessive amounts of PSI that didn't seem to be correct given our weight. Big impacts caused it to blow throught the travel, and at high speed with medium bumps it felt like sometimes it would not have enough travel left over for the next bump. All of this was not a result of the leverage of our bikes, it was because the DHX air doesn't really have any mid-stroke compression support, the internals are different to that of the DHX coil, this is also reinforced by PUSH who basically says the same thing about the DHX air. It does make the DHX air feel very plush at slower speeds on bumps, but basically it all adds up to inconsistancy and the tendancy to blow through the travel. You owe it to yourself to try the same bike with at least a DHX coil, if not a rocco or CC DB. Turner has stopped supplying the RFX with the DHX air for this reason, even though the leverage ratio on the 07 bike is better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Jayem said:
That shouldn't really be the fault of the 6.6, more the fault of the DHX Air.
Don't totally disagree Jayem...the DHX Air valving does seem to have some issues. It seems Fox has re-worked it for 2008 and it should be a little more solid in the mid-range. That being said, every suspension design has it's characteristics. Some linkages have more leverage than others. The Intense VPP seems to be pretty highly leveraged. Not sure if Santa Cruz's adaptation is the same, but it would make sense that it is. Given a highly leveraged linkage, it then calls into question the shock choice.

What will be interesting is to see how leveraged the Nicolai Horst Linkage is. My sense having ridden Tituses for a long time is that most Horst Link bikes are probably more progressive than VPP regardless of shock choice. But seat time on the Helius will tell.
 

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Dropin%Dug said:
Don't totally disagree Jayem...the DHX Air valving does seem to have some issues. It seems Fox has re-worked it for 2008 and it should be a little more solid in the mid-range. That being said, every suspension design has it's characteristics. Some linkages have more leverage than others. The Intense VPP seems to be pretty highly leveraged. Not sure if Santa Cruz's adaptation is the same, but it would make sense that it is. Given a highly leveraged linkage, it then calls into question the shock choice.

What will be interesting is to see how leveraged the Nicolai Horst Linkage is. My sense having ridden Tituses for a long time is that most Horst Link bikes are probably more progressive than VPP regardless of shock choice. But seat time on the Helius will tell.
Just because a design is highly leveraged does NOT mean that it can't be progressive. It does NOT mean that it will blow through it's travel. ALL it means is that a high spring rate will be required, which may or may not be available for a rider's weight. Loading of VPP pivots has always been an issue though, and this IS dependant on the overall leverage rate, but just because a bike is low-leverage like Foes does NOT mean that the suspension will be more or less progressive, or that it will even be damped correctly. Obviously the less the leverat ratio is the lighter the damping needs to be, but you can get some pretty screwy suspension characteristics by using shocks intended for ~2.7:1 in lower leverage applications, it's all about the shim design internally.

So the leverage of the VPP doesn't have much to do with how progressive it is or is not, that's the suspension CURVE, and irregardless of the leverage that will happen, the DHX air on the other hand lacks mid-stroke support so it doesn't matter what's going on with the bike, it will fall short.

Believe what you want about the DHX air, but lots of us wouldn't run one again, and there's a pretty big reason for that. In the search for lighter weight, I suggest people search elsewhere. At least do a RP23, but to really give your 6.6 a chance, put a DHX coil on there. Again, I HIGHLY suggest you try something else before making the assumption that it "blows through the travel" and that it's just the "bike's fault".

From the manufacturer's point of view, the DHX air makes sense, at slower speeds it feels VERY plush, and that sells bikes. Few people will have a chance to do big drops or push their bikes during the test ride, so people do test rides, and decided that the DHX air is the BEST, then more bikes come with them, and then they sell.

With any bike that's attached to a DHX air, it's not fair to say it does or doesn't blow through the travel until you've tried a different shock on it.

The "progressiveness" of a design just depends on the linkage arrangement, the VPP or Nicolai could be more or less "progressive", it has nothing to do with whether it's an "FSR" link design or not. You can easily design an FSR link as a falling rate, and that could make it feel very nice at slow speed and on small and medium hits...until you try to go faster and harder.
 
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