[lef-t]

I heard from a good source the city of Show Low is trying to aquire the Buena Vista area south of Show Low for development.

The ATV's have run wild in there, I don't know what my trails look like now. I used to keep the entrances hidden. Nobody cares about the place anymore.

The forest service doesn't want to be liable for fires in the Buena Vista. So they would be happy to get rid of it.

We used to have more secret trails on the west side on Hiway 60 but Torreon moved in and developed it.

There are a least 12 archeological sites in the Buena Vista. More were lost to Torreon. I am sad to hear the Boove will be gone, it was the best thing about living in Show Low.

I have led hundreds of fun rides through the secret net work, anyone who went on our Sat morning fun rides went on the secret trails. We took countless people into the Boove.

I used to campout there weekly for about a year. We built hidden shelters and had camping gear hidden there for a long time. We did two twelve hour all night races on the secret trails on a 11 mile loop that took an hour and a half to complete one lap.

I have hiked every acre on the buena vista, I know more about that 4 square miles than any human alive today. I know every large tree, every spring, every water hole, every indian ruin. I spent 10 years of my life living in and around the Boove. We named every feature there that didn't already have a name.

Now it's closed for fire season. My timing is off, last time I asked what was going on in the boove it had just snowed 3 feet. Now it's fire season, then lovely fall and muddy cold winter.

Nobody from the White Mountains ever posts on this board, I think people just go there to die, it's full of blue hairs, golf coarses, and every other pickup has an ATV and rifle in the back. All the young people move away, many great riders have come and gone, few of the originals remain.

Super Wal Mart and the Honda Casino have ruined the small town feel. I'm really glad I got out before the Boove was paved over. I wonder which house will end up with my underground shelter in their yard or a piece of nice single track.

Sad the west is being taken over by the rich, I have seen a lot of change in Arizona in the last 50 years, I have lost many good riding areas to development. I used to ride a horse behind South Mountain and shoot jack rabbits with my 22, nobody lived there until the 70's.

Now I live near Eugene Oregon, nobody wants to live here it never stops raining.

I've got a new Boove, it's about to be developed too. What's a boy to do?

 

[Jayem]

Super Wal Mart and the Honda Casino have ruined the small town feel.

No, it's all the people that keep having kids and causing the demand to exist for those things. If it wasn't wal-mart, it would be another corperation. People procreating is what causes these things, not the entities that fullfil the demand.

 

[CactusJoe]

No, it's all the people that keep having kids and causing the demand to exist for those things. If it wasn't wal-mart, it would be another corperation. People procreating is what causes these things, not the entities that fullfil the demand.

Love it. The old "kids and people who have them are the root of all evil" argument. Well take this: My 6 month old is at least 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times cuter than you, therefore you are wrong.

Actually the population growth rate in the US has slowed down dramatically in the last 20-30 years. I think it was Jared Diamond that made the following point in his book Guns Germs and Steel (about the development and clash of different civilizations). He stated that it was interesting that ours is the only species that once our basic physiological needs are met and we feel safe, our population growth rate slows down. (Right after the baby boom) The societies with the abundant food, shelter and capital have the slowest growth rates (especially in Europe) and the ones that can least afford it are growing the fastest, like in Africa. I'll bet Show Low shrinks after all the baby boomers die off since gen X is about half the size of that generation. So I don't buy your theory.

 

[Bake]

Damn breeders!

 

[Phillbo]

those trails don't sound to secret to me ..

 

[Paul B]

those trails don't sound to secret to me ..

Well, I've ridden in the Buena Vista area many times and I still can't find all these trails. Tom took me on a tour of his stuff once and there was quite a lot of hike a bike to get off the trail without leaving tire tracks. His strategy worked -- the only people who know about these trails are the ones who've ridden them, and not even all of us can find every entry or connector.

This is also the fatal flaw of the "secret trails" philosophy that so much of the biking world still jealously clings to: the fewer people know about your trails, the harder it is to defend them when the time comes.

p.

 

[dobbs]

Love it. The old "kids and people who have them are the root of all evil" argument. Well take this: My 6 month old is at least 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times cuter than you, therefore you are wrong.

Agreed. It's not overpopulation we're talking about, it's globalism, and partially the relocation of the US population from eastern big cities to the west. Yes, globalism affects even Show Low. The alternative? Protectionism - like France, we too can have a greater than 15% unemployment rate and youth riots....

Gotta take the good with the bad.

 

[jdub347]

Well, I've ridden in the Buena Vista area many times and I still can't find all these trails. Tom took me on a tour of his stuff once and there was quite a lot of hike a bike to get off the trail without leaving tire tracks. His strategy worked -- the only people who know about these trails are the ones who've ridden them, and not even all of us can find every entry or connector.

This is also the fatal flaw of the "secret trails" philosophy that so much of the biking world still jealously clings to: the fewer people know about your trails, the harder it is to defend them when the time comes.

p.

I went on a ride on those trails about 4 years back the day after the TotWM. A guy that worked (or owned) a shop (can't remember the name) and his son led it out. We started at the shop and rode across the highway and started by riding through a little development. It's a shame they are losing those trails, cause they were pretty damn cool. It was nice riding on something different with the locals.

 

[Dirdir]

No, it's all the people that keep having kids and causing the demand to exist for those things. If it wasn't wal-mart, it would be another corperation. People procreating is what causes these things, not the entities that fullfil the demand.

I think the overpopulation argument, particularly as it pertains to the US, is bunk. The problem is consumerism, TV, unhealthy lazy lifestyles and "expectationism". A large part of this problem was caused by the development of the interstate freeway system. The freeways enabled people to move all over this country with ease. We were able to just pick up and go. We left our families, our roots and our communities to buy cookie cutter houses. We lock ourselves up inside our houses or in our back yards. Front yard communities are a thing of the past. We don't have any idea who our neighbors are. We move every three years, just because we can and because we are always searching for more, for bigger and better. If the interstate freeway system never developed, our country would be a much better place. In addition, people don't flush public toilets anymore and we have lost our ability to spell. The world has turned to pot. God save the queen.

 

[sgaarmy]

I agree with Jayem in the fact that Walmart is there due to the demand from the local population. I mean people can boycott the store to save local business, ultimately the penny pinchers will win over and sneak in late at night to score the new xbox for 50 less and Walmart will take over the world. Procreation, hell thats what drives us to the insanity of this big mess "rat race" as people go insane trying to buy better cars and houses while living in the hell we call phoenix.

 

[Jayem]

I think the overpopulation argument, particularly as it pertains to the US, is bunk. The problem is consumerism, TV, unhealthy lazy lifestyles and "expectationism". .

I happen to think it's all one. We creat kids, and it doesn't matter that we may be reproducing "slower" than in the baby boomer days, we are producing consumers, and you are definitely right that we want IT ALL, and we want IT NOW. We want utilities, 65° air conditioning in 120° deserts, 2 big cars, all sorts of ammenaties, a decent amount of area to live in, and so on.

No only do we want these things, but we want MORE as time goes on. We keep cutting down the forest, enlarging the cities, and so on.

I don't think you are ever going to change people's attitudes easily, and you ain't going to easily change the "consumerism". Population would be a better starting point IMO.

I kind of like to think about "road improvements" in the same way you are talking about the highways. There are those that are against development, and I am definitely against development in some places, but when you go and widen the roads or build more roads, you simply invite more development, and the roads eventually clog back up. The extra or new roads do NOT solve any problems, they just simply allow the problem to keep happening, as anyone who has experienced a 2 hour commute over a 30 mile area can tell you. Developers see "road improvements" as free reign.

In the end, we have only ourselves to blame, not walmart or whomever happens to be in political office. The people have to change first before a leader will be elected that shares their (new) values. I get so sick of people who seem to be waiting for some sort of political "savior" to come along, and it's just never going to happen. If you vote to protect your family, your SUV, your huge house, your way of life, and so on, nothing may ever happen because the people in office will act accordingly, no matter what they may have "promised" in the heat of an election. No one wants to be voted out as the "bad guy" that clamped down on the enviroment and therefore all business and therefore caused the prices of all goods to go up so poorer families couldn't afford some necessities. Once we realize that it is ourselves and our neighbors to the left and right of us, we can at least begin to address the problems and change the way WE (and our neighbors) think, rather than sit back and complain and wait for something magical to happen.

 

[Jayem]

My 6 month old is at least 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times cuter than you

Ok.

And your 6 month will need an education, a car, a house, food, and so on. You decided that with over 6,000,000,000 people on this earth, that we needed more.

I'm not saying you're wrong, or that I'll never have a kid, but how many is enough?

 

[Dirdir]

I happen to think it's all one. We creat kids, and it doesn't matter that we may be reproducing "slower" than in the baby boomer days, we are producing consumers, and you are definitely right that we want IT ALL, and we want IT NOW. We want utilities, 65° air conditioning in 120° deserts, 2 big cars, all sorts of ammenaties, a decent amount of area to live in, and so on.

No only do we want these things, but we want MORE as time goes on. We keep cutting down the forest, enlarging the cities, and so on.

I don't think you are ever going to change people's attitudes easily, and you ain't going to easily change the "consumerism". Population would be a better starting point IMO.

I kind of like to think about "road improvements" in the same way you are talking about the highways. There are those that are against development, and I am definitely against development in some places, but when you go and widen the roads or build more roads, you simply invite more development, and the roads eventually clog back up. The extra or new roads do NOT solve any problems, they just simply allow the problem to keep happening, as anyone who has experienced a 2 hour commute over a 30 mile area can tell you. Developers see "road improvements" as free reign.

In the end, we have only ourselves to blame, not walmart or whomever happens to be in political office. The people have to change first before a leader will be elected that shares their (new) values. I get so sick of people who seem to be waiting for some sort of political "savior" to come along, and it's just never going to happen. If you vote to protect your family, your SUV, your huge house, your way of life, and so on, nothing may ever happen because the people in office will act accordingly, no matter what they may have "promised" in the heat of an election. No one wants to be voted out as the "bad guy" that clamped down on the enviroment and therefore all business and therefore caused the prices of all goods to go up so poorer families couldn't afford some necessities. Once we realize that it is ourselves and our neighbors to the left and right of us, we can at least begin to address the problems and change the way WE (and our neighbors) think, rather than sit back and complain and wait for something magical to happen.

I agree with most of this, except we differ on procreation. Procreation in and of itself is not evil or problematic. Like eating, sleeping, and making love, having offspring is so strongly wired into our genes that I see no point in trying to change society's procreation habits. Procreation is good, and as I implied in my last post, if we as a species learn to live "better", overpopulation in and of itself will never, ever be a problem. If our planet did things "right", there really is enough space and resources on earth for all of us and then some. We can't change the fact that we are "naked apes" with the need and desire to procreate. What we can change is how we live once we get here. I say shag away.

 

[yetisurly]

In the end, we have only ourselves to blame, not walmart or whomever happens to be in political office. The people have to change first before a leader will be elected that shares their (new) values. I get so sick of people who seem to be waiting for some sort of political "savior" to come along, and it's just never going to happen. If you vote to protect your family, your SUV, your huge house, your way of life, and so on, nothing may ever happen because the people in office will act accordingly, no matter what they may have "promised" in the heat of an election. No one wants to be voted out as the "bad guy" that clamped down on the enviroment and therefore all business and therefore caused the prices of all goods to go up so poorer families couldn't afford some necessities. Once we realize that it is ourselves and our neighbors to the left and right of us, we can at least begin to address the problems and change the way WE (and our neighbors) think, rather than sit back and complain and wait for something magical to happen.[/QUOTE]

jeez. move to N. Korea.

 

[Jayem]

jeez. move to N. Korea.

You know of any quick and easy fixes then?

 

[yetisurly]

You know of any quick and easy fixes then?

mmmm. Vote?

 

[Dirdir]

You know of any quick and easy fixes then?

I have one quick fix. Force Yetisurly to properly use the "QUOTE" button when replying to posts. I don't believe it is a lack of "know how" on his part. Thus, I must conclude that he does it to annoy and pester us. I think he already knows it bugs me to no end. If we can start with fixing this, who knows what bigger things will follow.

 

[yetisurly]

I have one quick fix. Force Yetisurly to properly use the "QUOTE" button when replying to posts. I

don't believe it is a lack of "know how" on his part. Thus, I must conclude that he does it to annoy and pester us.

I think he already knows it bugs me to no

end. If we can start with fixing this, who knows what bigger things will follow.

I know that if more people that are eligible to vote, do vote, the states would be a very different place. It is unfortunate that an absurd amount of people do not vote.

I do not know how to use any function on this computer.

 

[Enel]

I'm not saying you're wrong, or that I'll never have a kid, but how many is enough?

Just....one....more. They are sort of like bikes that way.

 

[YuriB]

all your votes are belong to us

mmmm. Vote?

Diebold will be doing all your voting for you from now on.