[jfinch23]

I currently have a Cannondale Prophet and love everything about the bike except for my rear shock which often bottoms out on mid-size drops and jumps. This is despite several pressure and rebound adjustments by myself and my LBS. I have been looking for other options in this area for a little while.

I just found a Cane Creek Double Barrel that is being sold in my area for a good price and have a couple questions related to this. First of all while the i2i is the same for this shock (7.875 inches) the stroke is 2.25 inches where the stock setup (and my current shock) have 2 inch stroke. Should I be fine doing this, and will this significantly affect the ride of my bike? I'm sure that this has been asked in another thread but I figured while I was asking a question about it I would include this one as well.

My next question is whether this is overkill for my current setup? I am predominantly an aggressive xc and light dh (although I will be making trips to Whistler and other places for more aggressive downhill). I am currently happy with most of my components which I will list below but am wondering if spending a significant amount of money (would probably end up being the most I have spent for any one part of the bike) for a new shock. Will the change in performance be worth it? Also with the change to coil should I expect other significant changes? Any other insights or suggestions for rear shocks or other components I should look into first?

List of (most) Components
06' Cannondale Prophet 800
08' Pushed Fox Vanilla RLC Fork (140mm)
Manitou Swinger X3 Rear Shock
Avid Elixir CR brakes
Shimano SLX Double with Bash (not shown in picture)
Race Face Diabolous Stem and Bar
Kenda Nevegal 2.1 Tires
Mavic Crossride Front
Mavic TXC 3.01 Rim with Hugi 240 Hub Rear (wheels are a bit questionable I know but I'm riding them until they break)

I am sorry if this is a bit wordy but I wanted to give you guys my whole situation. I have attached a picture of my bike if that would help in answering my question. Thanks

 

[300hp]

so. I recently sold my prophet and went through a bunch of this stuff. The 2.25 stroke will have some clearance issues between your rear tire and seat tube before the shock bottoms out. Your issues with wallowing mid stroke and easy bottom out come from the regressive suspension curve of the frame. That was my least favorite part of the bike. If you go with a coil, it is really easy to limit the stoke. Just go to the hardware store, get some nylon washers with the inner diameter of your piston and the outer of your bottom out bumper, cut a slit in them, and slide .3 of an inch worth of spacers behind your bottom out bumper. This effectively and non permanently limits the stroke of your shock. PUSH sells a machined alu piece to do this, but the hardware store cost me less then 2 bucks and allowed me to run a 7.87x2.25 dhx coil on my prophet. I liked the bike much better with a coil, I had to run a stiffer spring and about 15% sag to keep the bike from plowing through travel on bigger hits, but the coil was still supple enough to give me good small bump compliance. I don't think its overkill for your setup, it transforms the bike in a good way.

OH, forgot to mention, the spacer/stroke limiting thing is only important if you want to run the bike in its FR setting. In the XC setting, you will have no issues with the longer stroke. BUT, the only way to ride a prophet is in FR. the lower bb helps plant it in berms, its sooo nice. Get the DB, run it in FR, and transform your bike. Hope this helps, I just went through all this trial and error on the same frame, so hopefully it prevents you from going through the same ****.

Hunter

 

[SurfSailRide]

Awesome feedback, folks. Great thread.

 

[Jim311]

IMO that's too much shock for that bike AND I doubt the type of shock you are running has anything to do with your bottom out issues. It is normal to bottom out occasionally, consider running a little extra pressure.

 

[jfinch23]

Thanks a lot for the for the responses.

Jim in response to your post I already have the pressure set 15 psi over the recommended pressure for my weight and I still bottom out more than I think is regular and have more than the recommended sag. To be honest I am not the smoothest rider which contributes to this problem. I am just wondering if this shock is going to limit my bike from being truly "all mountain" as I'm not sure how my bike is going to handle more aggressive riding, such as a trip to Whistler (I don't expect/want to hit everything there, just a good amount of stuff). So another question is will this shock increase the upper limit of my bikes current riding limitations?

I have been planning on upgrading this shock anyways and was looking at coil as I'm not convinced on the air shocks. This is probably more than I was planning on spending but I think I am getting a good deal and it comes with the Ti spring. To be more specific is this shock worth $200 more in terms of weight and performance improvements over say a DHX 5.0 coil? Or if anyone has an air shock they believe will not have the same problem and that you recommend I am open to this as well.

300hp: Thanks for the recommendation of the FR setting, my winter riding unfortunately is the more XC season of my riding due to terrain limitations but I will definitely try FR when more aggressive riding comes into season. I was also wondering whether that travel limiting is definitely necessary? I was thinking about testing it (taking off my rear shock and measuring) but if you already have first hand experience that it doesn't clear I guess it doesn't make sense to do that. To put it another way does it definitely not clear or if you guessed that it didn't and decided to limit it?

And for anyone else does that set up for limiting travel seem reasonable/safe (not to question you 300hp I just want to make sure)?

Thanks

 

[derby]

With the falling rate swing arm leverage to the shock, this bike is clearly designed for and air shock's progressive rate spring ramp up in deep travel. All air springs are progressive rate more or less.

With coil you gain braking and downhill traction and smoother small bump everywhere, less mid travel wallow using less LSC damping than progressive rate air requires to deal with wallow, and quick trailside adjustment of preload.

You say you have more than recommended sag and are bottoming - then raise your sag. If you like your sag and want less bottoming, then you could reduce air volume in your shock with some some soft plastic sheet material such as from a juice bottle and put inside the air chamber to displace air volume with will ramp up earlier and wallow less and bottom less - this takes some time testing how much material to add, it's different for everyone, maybe start with a 1 x2 inch piece. Or send your shock to PUSH for their bottom travel resistanc bumper and much improved damping and smoothness.

The CCDB is not a good shock for falling rate swingarm leverage, it's linear spring rate when using the same sag will bottom on g-outs easier than your progressive rate air shock. Big sharp hits and drops to flat hits can be tuned with firmer HSD to ramp up and avoid bottoming, but smooth g-outs like transitional jump landings and smooth fast corners are LSC events and the spring rate does almost all the bottom travel resistance.

There are air assist coils that can be custom tuned for your bike's falling rate leverage. The Elka Stage-5 coil with air assist tuning is custom tuned for your bike's leverage with each new sale and maintenance service. X-Fusion and the Fox DHX RC4 also have coil with air assist, I don't know if these companies will custom tune for you.

I ride coil on a falling rate suspension, it is an old 2002 Vanilla RC custom tuned with a progressive bottom bumper for the leverage by PUSH. It is far better in traction and smoothness than any air shock I've tried and I never feel it bottom or wallow in deep travel from the falling rate leverage. Maybe PUSH would add a progressive bottom bumper to a CCDB, but then you'd be paying more money. I think my next shock for this bike or another falling rate leverage bike will be the Elka.

 

[jfinch23]

Thanks guys. I decided against getting the shock. Thanks Derby for your insights, looks like I am going to stick with an air shock. I'll just have to keep tinkering with my current one until I figure out another air shock. I know I am sort of hijacking my own thread but can anyone suggest the best mid-range air shock for my bike and with my riding style towards the more aggressive side of "all mountain" riding?

 

[CharacterZero]

A little late to the thread, but I did want to put it out there:
The CCDB 7.875 x 2 and
the CCDB 7.875 x 2.25 are the SAME SHOCK. They just use a different spring perch that acts as a spacer. Of course, you would need the correct spring. So if you are sold on the Ti spring that is a 2.25 stroke, you are effed...but you could sell the spring (to me? ) and get the right one.

That being said, I run a CCDB on my Ventana that has an end-stroke falling rate and don't have any problems with excessive bottom out.

If you can pick it up for a good price (including mounting hardware and spring) you can hedge your bets - if it doesn't work out, put it out there on the market (ebay/mtbr) for the spring and you might get what it is worth!

 

[headstrong356]

I think the real thing you have to understand is that buying most exotic possible shock is not always the best. May help you get a little edge on others and if you set it up nicely, not make you suck air as quickly. I think you are better of getting a a DHX because a DB is no longer the most adjustable shock(in my books), the new DHX RC4 is the new champ in terms of tunning it to your style(looking at getting it my self. Has High speed comp, low speed comp(same as DB) Rebound(not the High low like the DB but I think if you going to break up rebound control, Rockshox has the idea, begining and ending stroke) and then the things DB can't touch, bottom out progressiveness(control the ramp up into the bottom out) and bottom out force(PSI in piggyback chamber). I think you need the bottom out control if your feeling like you have to much of it going on.

 

[CharacterZero]

I think the real thing you have to understand is that buying most exotic possible shock is not always the best. May help you get a little edge on others and if you set it up nicely, not make you suck air as quickly. I think you are better of getting a a DHX because a DB is no longer the most adjustable shock(in my books), the new DHX RC4 is the new champ in terms of tunning it to your style(looking at getting it my self. Has High speed comp, low speed comp(same as DB) Rebound(not the High low like the DB but I think if you going to break up rebound control, Rockshox has the idea, begining and ending stroke) and then the things DB can't touch, bottom out progressiveness(control the ramp up into the bottom out) and bottom out force(PSI in piggyback chamber). I think you need the bottom out control if your feeling like you have to much of it going on.

I am looking forward to some back-to-back comparisons being made.

 

[Jim311]

Ignore the manufacturer ratings as far as shock pressure is concerned. Run what gets you the correct sag and what keeps you from bottoming. If your only problem with the bike and the shock is bottoming out, I seriously doubt another shock is going to help. I think your problem lies with your setup, not your equipment personally. One thing I do like about the DHX Air (or coil) is that it has a "bottom out adjust" which is a nice feature and softens hard hits, I rarely feel bottom outs.

 

[Acme54321]

Jim in response to your post I already have the pressure set 15 psi over the recommended pressure for my weight and I still bottom out more than I think is regular and have more than the recommended sag.

If you have more than the recommended sag you need more air.

 

[headstrong356]

Another quick fix is the high speed comp but I don't think you can do that without internal modifications