[Some Guy]

So what you are saying is Scott *don't* have their own factory.

To me, that would mean that they either: A) Own and operate a factory themselves, which could potentially produce frames for other companies. B) Have a factory owned and operated by someone else that produces frames exclusively for them.

So unless Ten-Tech is owned by Scott, I don't see how you can say it's their factory.

 

[rensho]

what is so difficult to understand here?

Scott is running their own factory. may it called Ten-Tech or whatever. anyway - they built this up new for Scott and also produce frames for other makes. this plant also has to make money, right? they won't build a whole facility and do just a couple of Scott frames....

Nino, that's just plain convoluted. Either Scott owns the factory, or they don't.

"they built this up new for Scott"=???? They, whom?
They Ten-Tech built a factory for Scott so that Scott doesn't need to use Ten-Tech's carbon building services to build frames?
Or Scott farms out its frames to be made by Ten-Tech, and in doing so, TT needed to build another factory to expand capacity and its P&L?

Sounds like the later to me.

 

[DIRT BOY]

Well Rivet here posted this on a another board.

Hey Rivet, not trying to have this be a case of "I told you so" but...
"Thanks for your email. We work exclusively with a top carbon manufacturer in Taiwan. Please let us know if you have further questions.

Thanks,

Phil Vega
Scott Bikes
208 622 1064"

Nothing about owning. Also Phil is the one that ackonwledge Scales cracking.

Also:

EDIT: It turns out Ten Tech does all Scott composite bikes now, not Top Key. It's a matter of semantics but Giant proper doesn't even manufacture Giant composite bikes, their composites side split off and became c-tech and it appears they do very little other than Giant stuff although they will be producing Colnago's soon.

Again, I am SURE SCOTT does not own that or any CF factory. What they have done it contract with a certain CF factory to make a carbon fiber exclusivley for SCOTT bikes. To stay profitable and in business they use other CF to build bikes for anyone else who wants them. Maybe simliar to what TREK does. BUT SCOTT does not won the company, I am sure of this.

 

[DIRT BOY]

Top Key makes Speclized:http://www.topkey.com.tw/pro_bike.htm

 

[nino]

sounds plausible...

Hey Rivet, not trying to have this be a case of "I told you so" but...
"Thanks for your email. We work exclusively with a top carbon manufacturer in Taiwan. Please let us know if you have further questions.

Thanks,

Phil Vega
Scott Bikes
208 622 1064"

Nothing about owning. Also Phil is the one that ackonwledge Scales cracking.

Also:

EDIT: It turns out Ten Tech does all Scott composite bikes now, not Top Key. It's a matter of semantics but Giant proper doesn't even manufacture Giant composite bikes, their composites side split off and became c-tech and it appears they do very little other than Giant stuff although they will be producing Colnago's soon.

Again, I am SURE SCOTT does not own that or any CF factory. What they have done it contract with a certain CF factory to make a carbon fiber exclusivley for SCOTT bikes. To stay profitable and in business they use other CF to build bikes for anyone else who wants them. Maybe simliar to what TREK does. BUT SCOTT does not won the company, I am sure of this.

i was told by several Scott guys they did a new plant because all those carbon factories wouldn't meet their standards. and they didn't want "others" copy their technology. now how these frims are connected i'm not sure. might well be they have a contract with a carbon manufacturer or something like that. all i know is they are doing frames in a new facility and do frames for other makes using their "old" technology (tube to tube) for other brands as well.

 

[DIRT BOY]

Nino. Yes, that sounds right. They CONTRACTED with a company to build SCOTT bikes exclusiley with thier OWN composite blend. So the company migth have needed more space and built another facility to make the SCOTT bikes. Then to remain profitable, they make frames for other companies as well.
Any company will built to "your standrads" if you pay them enough and supply the technology. Those Asian compaines know what they are doing with composites. Lot's of research also shows between the "big 3 or 4" compsites factories out there, the quality of the CF and building is very, very simliar in quality. Yes SCOTT like TREK having their blend of CF sets them apart in in fact might be better than anyone else is.

That does not imply that they OWN the factory. I think only TREK and LOOK actually own thier own composite factories.
Maybe it's a translatoin thing? Maybe they lied? Maybe similar to GIANT not making thier CF frames anymore, but a sister company? I think SCOTT has an exclusive contract with somone and that's it.

 

[nino]

Nino. Yes, that sounds right. They CONTRACTED with a company to build SCOTT bikes exclusiley with thier OWN composite blend. So the company migth have needed more space and built another facility to make the SCOTT bikes. Then to remain profitable, they make frames for other companies as well.
Any company will built to "your standrads" if you pay them enough and supply the technology. Those Asian compaines know what they are doing with composites. Lot's of research also shows between the "big 3 or 4" compsites factories out there, the quality of the CF and building is very, very simliar in quality. Yes SCOTT like TREK having their blend of CF sets them apart in in fact might be better than anyone else is.

That does not imply that they OWN the factory. I think only TREK and LOOK actually own thier own composite factories.
Maybe it's a translatoin thing? Maybe they lied? Maybe similar to GIANT not making thier CF frames anymore, but a sister company? I think SCOTT has an exclusive contract with somone and that's it.

back to your original concern of high-end brands made in Taiwan:

also Easton has their carbon handlebars and seatposts made in taiwan. the prices the consumer pays are insane.

 

[DIRT BOY]

Nino, I have no concerns with any high-quality frame, CF or alum made in Taiwan. No mainland China, maybe but that depends on the company.

I just thought the CF SCOTT bikes were made in Europe, that's all.

Probaly almost everyhting we buy now a days here in the US is made somewhere in Asia (China, Taiwan, Japan, Indonesia, etc.).

Asian compnaies can produce itmes as good or better than the US or Europe at a fraction of tyhe cost. Japenese car are an great example of this. Also biger profits for companies makig things there.

Like when Colonaga annouced they wre selling Asian made CF frames now. It was the only way they said to produce affordable CF frames due to the high cost of labor in Italy.

I am still looking at a Addict or CR1 regardless to were they are made.

Almost every brand of CF or aluminum bikes produced by the big Asian factories will have the same quality. You are basically now buying because of brand, looks and the companies philosiphy of building bikes. The quality is there on all the frames now.

 

[peabody]

dirtboy PLEASE stop

Nino, I have no concerns with any high-quality frame, CF or alum made in Taiwan. No mainland China, maybe but that depends on the company.

I just thought the CF SCOTT bikes were made in Europe, that's all.

Probaly almost everyhting we buy now a days here in the US is made somewhere in Asia (China, Taiwan, Japan, Indonesia, etc.).

Asian compnaies can produce itmes as good or better than the US or Europe at a fraction of tyhe cost. Japenese car are an great example of this. Also biger profits for companies makig things there.

Like when Colonaga annouced they wre selling Asian made CF frames now. It was the only way they said to produce affordable CF frames due to the high cost of labor in Italy.

I am still looking at a Addict or CR1 regardless to were they are made.

Almost every brand of CF or aluminum bikes produced by the big Asian factories will have the same quality. You are basically now buying because of brand, looks and the companies philosiphy of building bikes. The quality is there on all the frames now.

making the mistake of lumping japan in with china,taiwan etc. japan is NOT a low
cost labor country, their lifestyle is every bit on the same level as the US and western
europe. why do you think all these cf bikes are made in taiwan/china and not
japan?

 

[DIRT BOY]

I am not lumping them with low cost labor countires at all. I am just saying itmes coming from Asia/Far East, that's all.
What I am saying is a LOT of products we buy come fom that area. At one point Japna WAS like Taiwan and China, like after WW II. then we helped them rebuild, gave them technology and now they kick our ass on my levels on consumer goods. Japan and the US are better off for this. Now THEY are are the ones helping our economy.

Don't be suprised in say 20 yrs if China shares our same lifestyle as well. They will be dominating the market sooner than you think. But I am sure you are aware of this.

I am fully aware of Japan's lifestyle/economy. I have a few good friends who came here 5 yrs ago from Japan.

 

[thebreeze]

I was just ready a thread about bikes made in Taiwan. I live in Taiwan and am a language consultant. I've toured the SRAM factory as well as frame manufactering facilities. I had a friend who did QC for a German company for their mtb division. One of my jobs is at the shipping company that ships a major brand (if not the largest) to the US. I consider Taichung, Taiwan to be the bicycle manufacturing capital of the world. Their welders are probably the most experienced in the world, due to the huge number of frames coming out or Taiwan. If you compare their experience to the custom welders in the US, there is no comparison. There probably aren't any welders in the US with the number of built frames under their belt like the welders here. If you buy one of the parlor brand name bikes, Kona, Trek, etc., you're getting basically the same thing, maybe a little different geometry. The same goes for accessories, seatpost, stems, bars, etc. There are 4 factories that produce all the Race Face, Easton, etc. Kalloy probably the largest, along with Kinesis, KHS, and Giant. Anyway, comparing your Kona to your friends Stumpjumper to his friends Santa Cruz really is no comparison. You could make an argument about attention to detail, though. The high prices you pay are for shipping costs (thanks to George Bush, Haliburton, and the rest they are not higher due to oil prices) and the advertising of these companies.

 

[Rivet]

China will never share the same lifestyle as Europe or America until they begin to protect intellectual property. Otherwise, where is the incentive to innovate?

Yep, it is standard practice even at larger corporations in China and Taiwan to use pirated software.....another reason the price of doing business there is cheaper.

 

[Slobberdoggy]

It's true you can't confuse the the ultra exotic (my words) German, Danish and other European part people from the more mass produced big brand name stuff (Becker, Thm-Carbon, Spin, Carbon-Ti verses FSA Scott, Speccy, Trek). Price wise there is a huge difference but some of the confusion may have come from some discussion of the Scott carbon technology/process/frame being designed in Switzerland. I believe that's correct. Where is the carbon Orbea Alma made I wonder?

However, Scott still have the lightest and rather nice riding frames. I asked Crumpton to do a 1000 to 1200g frame and he said the seat/chain stays are not strong enough to go that light. Aside from getting a durable quality and CUSTOM frames, I don't think the small custom carbon frame manufacturers can compete with the R&D, Tech of the big guys. If I'm not mistake the "Limited" scots are the god shots of the 10's that happened to weigh a certain amount less then average. I would love a ultra light yet durable high tech expensive bike from america that works like the Scott limited series but for now the prices would be beyond what the market could afford realistically (maybe you could find somebody to get what it would take - your own venture?).

Certainly though custom frames may be able to give you something better than weight. A custom butted 6/4 ti road frame from Strong would be interesting.

Scott seemed to lead the way with sub 1100 mtb frames and slowly the others have followed. I still dislike their choice of an e-type front der on the scale with a 73 shell. I would pay good money for an 07 Scale Limited with a shaved bb - any takers?

I think Scott offers a unique product because it works and it's light. I've crashed my Scale a hand full of times plus I'm around 194lbs. I certainly don't jump or anything, just ride/race into corners and hills as fast as I can! :madmax:

You mention weight to the reps of the other companies and they roll their eyes and say they aren't trying to produce the lightest bike (just a stiff one) even though they began the conversation by heralding how light their new frame is. Nino had his go around with the Speccy guys at Euro Bike and I had a go around with some traveling Cannondale reps that visited a shop where I'm at. (The mtb Cans' are still good bikes.)

Amazingly, one of the best deals for the high end German stuff is on Ebay from a guy in Japan! I paid a good price on a new Becker MTB saddle (with manual) and received it in about ONE WEEK. I wish I could get a new frame I want made in China that fast.

 

[ScottWatkins]

What pisses me off about the whole deal is that they don't pass the savings to us, the consumer. I know that if the bikes were made in the US that they would be more expensive. I'm willing to pay more for a product that is made in America. I also understand that everything can't be sourced from US labor. I think that the only reason they're made in other countries is because of the cheaper labor. Who gets the savings? Not us. That mean the bike Mfg's are making more on the bikes. My current ride is a '99 Cannondale. I'm soon getting a new Stumpjumper and it's made in China or Taiwan. I wonder how much more this bike would cost if it were made in the US?

 

[DIRT BOY]

Then maybe you understand about currency manipulation (both China and Japan have long engaged in this)?
That is part of the reason Japanese cars and Chinese merchandise appear to be cheaper. This trade imbalance does not leave the US better off. Have you noticed the rising disparity between the upper echelon of US society (the richest 1%)? Free trade benefits all nations (since each will develop "core" competencies which it will sell to other nations). Japan and China are not engaged in free trade practices currently. Please, please take an economics class.
China will never share the same lifestyle as Europe or America until they begin to protect intellectual property. Otherwise, where is the incentive to innovate?

yes I do understand the manipulatio to a ceratin exent. BUT labor is also cheaper in China, Indonesia, etc and that IS one reason why products are cheaper.

China is also waking up to"Westren ways" and things are rapidly changing.

When was the last time you saw a Japanese cars that are cheap? Japanese cars of equaly class of american cars are more expensive. Compared to Euro cars, they are very close in price and some are acutally better made and value.
My FORD is a pile of crap compared to a Toyota! My Jeep Cherokee was even worse.

Now Korean cars are cheaper. We can't compare Chinese cars as they are not availabe in the US.

 

[DIRT BOY]

Their welders are probably the most experienced in the world, due to the huge number of frames coming out or Taiwan. If you compare their experience to the custom welders in the US, there is no comparison. There probably aren't any welders in the US with the number of built frames under their belt like the welders here.

That is becoming more and more true everyday as well as CF bikes. Yes they labor is cheaper, but you build that amount of bikes they do, you are bound to get better and better. It aslo seems that the average worker there takes pride in what they do.

Similar to the Japanese with cars. Yes their workers are paid less and work more hours than US workers, but they have PRIDE in everything they build. It shows in more and more consistant quality cars. Now those same pricipals are trying to be used here in US Japanese car factories, but it's not the same. Those cars made here in US factories can't compete in quality.

As you said, Taiwan IS the bike capital and some of the best skilled workers are there.

BUT there are plenty, I mean plenty of very skilled craftsman build bikes here in the US and Europe who are just as goo if not better. But Taiwan has sooo many very good/best in one place.

 

[DIRT BOY]

a Thread from WW about the addict and R3

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23236

madcos (jason of fair wheels bikes) says SCOTT owns the building and NO other frames are made there, period.

Another poster again says the factory is owned and frames made by Ten-Tech in China nor Taiwan.

Oh well...

 

[xc-rider]

I know I'm a little late but the exact answers you are looking for is :

Scott CR1 were first made by Topkey. Then the group from Topkey that used to work with Scott left the company to create Tentech. The custommer (Scott) followed the team they were used to work with, so here you go, Scott frames were then made by Tentech. During the first year, Scott was Tentech's only custommer, but of course the company grew and here came another custommer : Cervelo.

As far as Topkey is concerned, they are not left without work since they produce frames for Specialized, Cannondale, Canyon, Lapierre and many others !


Now all these frames aren't taiwanese made but chinese made. Then they are usually shipped to Taiwan either to be built as complete bike ro to be packed and ship to Europe.
Shipping from Taiwan is just a way to having these frames "made in Taiwan" and help with taxes (anti-dumping).


Anyway, it doesn't really matter where the frame is made as long as the QC is EXCELLENT (it has to be) to make sure the frame respect the original design, lay up, etc.

Hope this helps...

 

[dualceleron]

On the same note... please don't group China with Taiwan. Taiwan has a developed economy while China is still a 3rd world country.

According to Wikipedia, the GDP per capita by country (the value of all final goods and services produced within a nation in a given year divided by the average population for the same year.) of:

United States - US$41,399 (ranked #3)
Hong Kong - US$33,479 (ranked #8)
Japan - US$30,615 (ranked #16)
Italy - US$28,534 (ranked #21)
Singapore - US$28,368 (ranked #22)
Taiwan - US$27,721 (ranked #24)
Spain - US$26,320 (ranked #25)
China - US$7,198 (ranked #87)

As you can see, Taiwan is ranked very close to Japan, while China is very far behind.

The list is available at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Give Taiwan the credit its due... :thumbsup:

 

[Cheers!]

I just came back from a trip to asia. One month long... Tokyo, China, Hong Kong, and Macau. Visiting Shanghai, and their smaller neighboring cities (any one with population of less than 2 million) you'd retract your third world statement comment immediately. BMWs everywhere, Audis, and I guess GM has a lot of manufacturing power there or lots of investments. However the most common is still VW.

Oh and walking down the main streets of those cities you'd see Prada, Armani, Guess, Boss, Zara corporate boutique stores. Starbucks everywhere w/ line ups out the door. Oh and starbucks there is 2X what it costs here in Canada or USA. There is money galore there now.

Taiwan/Japan/China also happen to be the carbon fibre experts of the world.