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Elitest thrill junkie
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Interesting that they aren't offering Lasers as an option. Probably due to the fat that CX-Ray is more expensive and has more profit. Lasers are basically round CX-Rays, so if you want the same everything else, but cheaper, get the Lasers. Sapim's claim that CX-Ray is slightly strong seems very much like BS. Bladed spokes are mainly for vanity. Not that it's a bad thing, it's nice to have something that looks aesthetically pleasing and if you can afford it, why not.
 

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high pivot witchcraft
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Discussion Starter #22 (Edited)
Interesting that they aren't offering Lasers as an option. Probably due to the fat that CX-Ray is more expensive and has more profit. Lasers are basically round CX-Rays, so if you want the same everything else, but cheaper, get the Lasers. Sapim's claim that CX-Ray is slightly strong seems very much like BS. Bladed spokes are mainly for vanity. Not that it's a bad thing, it's nice to have something that looks aesthetically pleasing and if you can afford it, why not.
I have We Are One wheel sets built with each of the two spokes in question - CX-Rays and Race. Unless I look closely, I see little difference. The aesthetics thing is a little overblown IMO. Maybe not for some, but for me it is, and I am a total sucker for bling.

Do the people in the radial compliance expertise camp recommend Race over CX-Rays? I think those are my only two options.
 

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Been running CXRays on 3 wheel sets, built to Stans 29” Baron and Flow MK3 for a few years. Single speed and geared. All on 29x3.0 tires. Love how they ride with aluminum rims but never built to carbon. I ride lots of rocks and sand and couldn’t be happier. Haven’t broken one yet. Built with King and Onyx on brass nips
 

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West Chester, PA
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I have We Are One wheel sets built with each of the two spokes in question - CX-Rays and Race. Unless I look closely, I see little difference. The aesthetics thing is a little overblown IMO. Maybe not for some, but for me it is, and I am a total sucker for bling.

Do the people in the radial compliance expertise camp recommend Race over CX-Rays? I think those are my only two options.
Theoretically the race should be more compliant. Lasers would be even more compliant. But I think it's complete BS personally. 28 or 32 spoke wheels with deep profile carbon rims are going to be rigid as hell no matter what. If you think you can tell the difference after tires, suspension and frame compliance do their things... Then I guess you're a cyborg.
 

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Interesting that they aren't offering Lasers as an option. Probably due to the fat that CX-Ray is more expensive and has more profit. Lasers are basically round CX-Rays, so if you want the same everything else, but cheaper, get the Lasers. Sapim's claim that CX-Ray is slightly strong seems very much like BS. Bladed spokes are mainly for vanity. Not that it's a bad thing, it's nice to have something that looks aesthetically pleasing and if you can afford it, why not.
Then maybe all of those hand tools that say “forged” or “cold forged” is BS too?

It’s not BS. It is science. Materials science that is. Achieved through a phenomenon known as work hardening. Higher strength, but less ductility.

It is even better if your work hardening process coupled with heat treat and quench gets you favorable grain boundary geometry for the principal stresses you are trying to design for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Oh, So Interesting!
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Then maybe all of those hand tools that say “forged” or “cold forged” is BS too?

It’s not BS. It is science. Materials science that is. Achieved through a phenomenon known as work hardening. Higher strength, but less ductility.

It is even better if your work hardening process coupled with heat treat and quench gets you favorable grain boundary geometry for the principal stresses you are trying to design for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup, we've been over this before and apparently these physical phenomenon that have been known for decades are refuted by some. 🙄
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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Then maybe all of those hand tools that say “forged” or “cold forged” is BS too?

It’s not BS. It is science. Materials science that is. Achieved through a phenomenon known as work hardening. Higher strength, but less ductility.

It is even better if your work hardening process coupled with heat treat and quench gets you favorable grain boundary geometry for the principal stresses you are trying to design for.


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But the lasers and circular spokes ARE cold forged too. This is not unique to the CX-rays.
 

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But the lasers and circular spokes ARE cold forged too. This is not unique to the CX-rays.
CX-Ray
The CX-Ray still receives one of the best results in fatigue testing of any spoke. Its unique strength and flexibility make the CX-Ray suitable for most bicycle disciplines. The middle section of the spoke is drawn then pressed in a special mold to form its specific profile. CX-Ray spokes are used by top bike racers and triathletes around the world. Even downhillers use them, recognizing their strength and flexibility. Special alloy treatment and sophisticated production make this all possible. The CX-Ray fits in all standard hub holes.
Weight: (64 pcs x 260 mm lg) 272 g
Strength on middle section: 1600 N/mm2

Laser
The Laser is a lightweight spoke. The thin middle section of 1,5 mm needs special care while building up the wheel. You may have to use pliers to hold the spoke to prevent the spokes from winding up. Only experienced wheel builders should mount up wheels with this spoke.
Weight: 283 g (64 x 260 mm)
Strength on middle section: 1500 N/mm2
The rest of the sapim range have lower strength. Life is easier with bladed spokes ...


I use DT Swiss Aerocomp (stronger) or Aerolite (lighter) myself.
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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CX-Ray



Laser



The rest of the sapim range have lower strength. Life is easier with bladed spokes ...


I use DT Swiss Aerocomp (stronger) or Aerolite (lighter) myself.
All non-bladed spokes can wind up, butted spokes more than straight. If you are getting wind up, you need better spoke prep, because that's what prevents it. Holding the spoke as a work-around is not a good replacement for proper spoke prep.

Round spokes are cold forged, this also adds strengthening.

I think Sapim is full of BS when they say the CX-ray is stronger. If anything, the bladed profile makes corrosion concerns and damage much more significant, since it will decrease the available cross-section of material, which is what the tensile strength depends on.
 

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Oh, So Interesting!
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All non-bladed spokes can wind up, butted spokes more than straight. If you are getting wind up, you need better spoke prep, because that's what prevents it. Holding the spoke as a work-around is not a good replacement for proper spoke prep.

Round spokes are cold forged, this also adds strengthening.

I think Sapim is full of BS when they say the CX-ray is stronger. If anything, the bladed profile makes corrosion concerns and damage much more significant, since it will decrease the available cross-section of material, which is what the tensile strength depends on.
You are entitled to your beliefs, but they are not reality.

Testing spokes for UTS is something every freshman engineering student who is into cycling does, both with and without cryo treatment. You can't simply lie about it, it's just too easy to test. It's not like Sapim wears an orange wig. :p
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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You are entitled to your beliefs, but they are not reality.

Testing spokes for UTS is something every freshman engineering student who is into cycling does, both with and without cryo treatment. You can't simply lie about it, it's just too easy to test. It's not like Sapim wears an orange wig. :p
This is also the company that claims alloy nipples are stronger than brass. They since removed that from their site, but make no mistake, they had it there and you can find it in the archives of this forum. So to say I "suspect" their numbers is an understatement. Although they make good stuff, they are know to BS it. Sure, I'd love to see independent testing of the tensile strength.
 

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Oh, So Interesting!
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This is also the company that claims alloy nipples are stronger than brass. They since removed that from their site, but make no mistake, they had it there and you can find it in the archives of this forum. So to say I "suspect" their numbers is an understatement. Although they make good stuff, they are know to BS it. Sure, I'd love to see independent testing of the tensile strength.
UTS Brass: 360 MPa
Yield Strength Brass: 140 MPa

UTS 7050 Al T7: 552 MPa
Yield: 490 MPa

You were saying? ....
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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UTS Brass: 360 MPa
Yield Strength Brass: 140 MPa

UTS 7050 Al T7: 552 MPa
Yield: 490 MPa

You were saying? ....
Please explain to me why aluminum nipples fail, round out, etc. Also, Sapim claims 7075 is the strongest, but 7050 is stronger, as you indicate. So Sapim isn't being honest right there either.
 

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Oh, So Interesting!
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Please explain to me why aluminum nipples fail, round out, etc. Also, Sapim claims 7075 is the strongest, but 7050 is stronger, as you indicate. So Sapim isn't being honest right there either.
I didn't say anything about 7050 vs 7075, IDK where you got that from?

On the other stuff, it's more complicated than Al is stronger vs brass, but it's also true that Al is indeed stronger than brass in terms of the info I posted.

The issue is you don't actually understand the topic, yet you feel the need to have strong opinions on the topic, including defaming Sapim for no reason at all. Not surprisingly, your opinions do not line up with reality.
 

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West Chester, PA
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All non-bladed spokes can wind up, butted spokes more than straight. If you are getting wind up, you need better spoke prep, because that's what prevents it. Holding the spoke as a work-around is not a good replacement for proper spoke prep.

Round spokes are cold forged, this also adds strengthening.

I think Sapim is full of BS when they say the CX-ray is stronger. If anything, the bladed profile makes corrosion concerns and damage much more significant, since it will decrease the available cross-section of material, which is what the tensile strength depends on.
Christ dude... the MANUFACTURER says you might need to hold a spoke with pliers but you declare it's user error if needed? What's your next trick?
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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I guess you get bad windup then?
 

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Robertson
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Anecdotally, I have found CX-rays to be much stronger than Race. I've had many carbon wheelsets over the years, every one with Race (or DT-swiss equiv) has broken at least one spoke. My wheelset with lasers and the one with CX-ray is still going strong on the original spokes many, many, many hard miles later
 

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I have. At about 75% of target tension with liberal lube. That last 20-25% was the hardest.

(Thats what she said)
Tension the high side first (right rear/left front), then bring the wheel into dish with the low tension side. Takes practice/experience to get it close, but it delivers a straight/well tensioned wheel with less faffing about...at least with round spokes.
 
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