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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Checked out one of these out at a ride and man the clearance is huge back there. Looks like it could take a 2.5" 26" tire easily and the clearance between the RD and the front edge of the tire must have been an inch or more. No brackets or stays anywhere to interfere with a 650B tire. Only thing I couldn't check was the shock fully bottomed out but my gut feeling is this would not be an issue. Even the rep working with the demos agreed that it looks like it was made to fit 650B. Bummer it was the only one they had on display so no demo rides.

Santa Cruz Bicycles

Just an FWI since you can get this as frame only :thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
So I contacted Santa Cruz about the Butcher/Nickle? fitting 650B. Got the usual safe answer but also some other good info from him. I read somewhere the a 650B with a Neo Moto is approx 702mm so in the Butchers case this might hit the seat tube at full compression. I now have my 650B rear wheel ready so I will be test fitting it on as many bikes as possible.

Here is the answer from Santa Cruz

We have not physically tried this and wouldn't recommend it as the Butcher
was designed specifically for 26" wheels.

But....here are the relevant clearance details -

The Butcher is designed to accommodate a fairly healthy 26x2.5 tire which
Probably isn't that much different than a medium to small-ish 650b.
The butcher has 11.5mm of tire clearance to the seat tube at bottom out and
13.5mm to the seat tube cable stops using a tire that is 685mm in diameter
and 63.5mm wide. We like to have at minumum of 8mm of tire clearance to the
seat tube.
So the answer is if you are using a 650B tire that is less than 692mm in
total diameter it should fit.
No promises though!

Thanks for your interest in Santa Cruz, and let me know if you have any
other questions.

Scott Turner | Santa Cruz Bicycles
 

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So I contacted Santa Cruz about the Butcher/Nickle? fitting 650B. Got the usual safe answer but also some other good info from him. I read somewhere the a 650B with a Neo Moto is approx 702mm so in the Butchers case this might hit the seat tube at full compression. I now have my 650B rear wheel ready so I will be test fitting it on as many bikes as possible.

Here is the answer from Santa Cruz

We have not physically tried this and wouldn't recommend it as the Butcher
was designed specifically for 26" wheels.

But....here are the relevant clearance details -

The Butcher is designed to accommodate a fairly healthy 26x2.5 tire which
Probably isn't that much different than a medium to small-ish 650b.
The butcher has 11.5mm of tire clearance to the seat tube at bottom out and
13.5mm to the seat tube cable stops using a tire that is 685mm in diameter
and 63.5mm wide. We like to have at minumum of 8mm of tire clearance to the
seat tube.
So the answer is if you are using a 650B tire that is less than 692mm in
total diameter it should fit.
No promises though!

Thanks for your interest in Santa Cruz, and let me know if you have any
other questions.

Scott Turner | Santa Cruz Bicycles
Thanks for the info…this is exactly what I was looking for! I wanted to build a bike with at least 140mm travel with either 650b or 29er. But after doing some research it doesn't look like there is not that much of an advantage over a 650b with 2.3 and a 26" with 2.5 tires? I ride a Niner WFO myself. Reason why I want to build a full suspension 650b was for my wife. She liked how my WFO rode but she felt like the bike was "too big" but the frame was a small (im 5'8" and she's 5'4") so I figure 650b would be perfect (she currently rides a specialized safire comp). Am I missing something? Does ~15mm make that much of a difference?
 

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Does ~15mm make that much of a difference?
Yes 15mm makes a huge difference. It may not sound like much, but out on the trail you definitely notice the difference. Just think about how much different a 26" wheel bike rides when you go from 2.1 to 2.3 tires, and that is only about 5mm. I can remember years ago going from 2.1 Nevegals to 2.3 Nevegals. The bike became a whole new bike that could go through stuff I never could with the 2.1s, and again we are only talking about 5mm! Also keep in mind that most 2.5 tires are heavy and slow, they will be much slower than a 2.3 Neo. The idea that a large 26" tire can equal 650b is kind of a myth.
 

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Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
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Yes 15mm makes a huge difference. It may not sound like much, but out on the trail you definitely notice the difference. Just think about how much different a 26" wheel bike rides when you go from 2.1 to 2.3 tires, and that is only about 5mm. I can remember years ago going from 2.1 Nevegals to 2.3 Nevegals. The bike became a whole new bike that could go through stuff I never could with the 2.1s, and again we are only talking about 5mm! Also keep in mind that most 2.5 tires are heavy and slow, they will be much slower than a 2.3 Neo. The idea that a large 26" tire can equal 650b is kind of a myth.
Well said.

I can tell you as a bike designer, I and my industry peers really sweat things down to the millimeter. In bicycle design, 3mm makes a big difference. You can actually feel it in many, many instances. And can be the difference between a good bike and a great one.

Ask any experienced kinematics engineer and they will tell you moving a pivot point a few mm in any direction can completely change the function and character of a suspension system. And changing the wheel radius, has a big impact on the design of that system. In other words, all designers I know begin a frame design by defining the size of the wheel down to the mm. Going from a 350mm to 355mm wheel radius [in the case of 650b] will affect other aspects of the design.

Trail is another example of how just a few mm can really change the feel of the handling of the bike. Going from a 2.1 to 2.3 tire also increases the trail. And as you point out, the results are tangible. One can argue it has more to do with the increase in trail than it does the burlier tire...

Cheers,
KP
 

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Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
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That being said, what recommendations do you have re: selecting a fork for going to 650b, re: offset and A to C length?
Far too many variables to make any meaningful recommendations. The closest I can come is to suggest that in the case of a 650b conversion, you try to replicate the trail value of the existing bike...

Cheers,
KP
 

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Thanks for the info…this is exactly what I was looking for! I wanted to build a bike with at least 140mm travel with either 650b or 29er. But after doing some research it doesn't look like there is not that much of an advantage over a 650b with 2.3 and a 26" with 2.5 tires? I ride a Niner WFO myself. Reason why I want to build a full suspension 650b was for my wife. She liked how my WFO rode but she felt like the bike was "too big" but the frame was a small (im 5'8" and she's 5'4") so I figure 650b would be perfect (she currently rides a specialized safire comp). Am I missing something? Does ~15mm make that much of a difference?
Get her a 26" bike with a 69 degree head angle and 650B front wheel[ an older Reign?]. Great combo for grip and stability. Butcher may be too slack for her with 650B anyway. If you want full 650B, Heckler, Blur LT, Mojo are full 650B compatible and have the ideal 650B head angle. 1/2" higher BB may be a problem for her though?

And yes the 15mm does make a big difference in cornering stability and grip.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Get her a 26" bike with a 69 degree head angle and 650B front wheel. Great combo for grip and stability.
Yup, might be the easiest solution. Front is where you notice it the most. She has a nice Saphire Comp now and if that bike has a Fox fork just install a 650B wheel and let her try it. Heck, allot of Spec. bikes fit 650B rear now. Maybe hers will??

The way I read your post is you want to build her a 140mm travel full 650B bike? Is that correct? Small frame in full 650B might be a problem. Pick up one of those leftover Jamis 2010 B1 or B2 frames on ebay or Cycling Closeouts right now for $549 or $599 might be your best bet. 130mm rear travel and toss on a 140mm fork.

Mountain Bikes - Cycling Closeouts

Leftover 2011 Marin Mount Vision frames are 140mm travel with big clearance. Use the 2 x 9 only compact cage Shimano SLX FD for tire clearance. Adrenalin bikes and allot more than the Jamis frames

Adrenaline Bikes, Chumba Mountain Bikes, Mountain Bike Accessories, Mountain Bike Parts, Bicycle Accessories

Some of the other SC bikes seem very adaptable to 650B so look into those. Cannondale Rush is another...or my Prophet.
 

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Yup, might be the easiest solution. Front is where you notice it the most. She has a nice Saphire Comp now and if that bike has a Fox fork just install a 650B wheel and let her try it. Heck, allot of Spec. bikes fit 650B rear now. Maybe hers will??

The way I read your post is you want to build her a 140mm travel full 650B bike? Is that correct? Small frame in full 650B might be a problem. Pick up one of those leftover Jamis 2010 B1 or B2 frames on ebay or Cycling Closeouts right now for $549 or $599 might be your best bet. 130mm rear travel and toss on a 140mm fork.

Mountain Bikes - Cycling Closeouts

Leftover 2011 Marin Mount Vision frames are 140mm travel with big clearance. Use the 2 x 9 only compact cage Shimano SLX FD for tire clearance. Adrenalin bikes and allot more than the Jamis frames

Adrenaline Bikes, Chumba Mountain Bikes, Mountain Bike Accessories, Mountain Bike Parts, Bicycle Accessories

Some of the other SC bikes seem very adaptable to 650B so look into those. Cannondale Rush is another...or my Prophet.
Thanks again for the suggestions! funny how you and GVS NVG suggest putting a fox fork and try a 650b on her bike. I actually upgraded her bike with a XT tubeless wheel set with 2.4 f&r purgatory and a 2008 fox talas 140mm(handed down to her from my Fuji). I still want to build her a longer travel bike with either 650b rear & 650b front or 26 rear & 650b front or finally 650b rear & 29er front (I'll make a new thread so as to not thread jack). I saw those Jamis on clearance and was thinking about it but its only 130mm travel . Thanks again for the Marin mount visions heads up! Didn't know about those...perfect because one of the criteria for the frame is tapered head(I have a hand me down Marz 44Ti 29er fork) such as the SC Butcher!
 

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Just rode a SC Blur LT with 650b wheels. I am trying to decide on a new mtb. I was inspired by the way the 29'ers (Giant Anthem X2 and Specialized Camber Comp) I rode handled and got over obstacles. Then, I had the opportunity to demo the new Yeti SB66. Phenomenal bike! Long top tube. Climbed like a goat. But, there was one problem...the 29'er made me a better rider; the 26'er didn't. Lost, but not really, I knew I had to buy a 29'er no matter what people are saying about bottom bracket height, or flex, or limited travel, although I think 130mm is enough for the trails in Westchester County, N.Y. I had the opportunity to demo/test ride a SC Blur LT (large) w/ 650b wheels. I am 5' 10" and find the large comfortable, but maybe a little big. Maybe. The bike handles extremely well. What I mean is it can handle like a 29'er and roll over obstacles. The bike gives you confidence. I can also pick up the front end, unlike a 29'er, which gives it a 26'er characteristic on the trail. I knew it the first 30 seconds. The bike is the best of both worlds...and what a nice feature to have in a frame...to switch between two tire sizes and only use one frame; to achieve this feat is impressive. I like the SC Butcher as well! I might get my hands on a medium with the same rims. If I do, I will keep anybody interested updated on my experience aboard the Butcher with 650b wheels. Thanx...
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I think seat tube clearance at full travel is what may be marginal.
Yup, pretty sure that's gonna be an issue with the Butcher but not by much. A small shim in the shock would take care of it.

On that note I also mentioned the 2011 Mount Vision 140 in one of my posts above. Pending my findings on the OD of the stock tire on an XM7 (MotoRaptor Comp 2.24") it appears this would need a shim in the shock as well. I had someone measure it in stock from and it was approx. 12mm from the seat tube at full bottom out. I was really hoping for more than that but shimming is pretty easy.
 

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Even a lower volume sleeve or volume adjust spacer on the shock may do the trick. Going from Xv to std sleeve you usually loose about 3 to 4mm squeeze out on the shock. Helps support your mid range, if need be, as well. Prefer it to a travel shim IMHO.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Should fit...if my math is correct?

Nickel may not work without without some sort off shock shimming. Only 3/4" of clearance between tire and seat tube when rear shock is fully compressed. That is with 2.1 nevegals
With 3/4" the largest current 650B the Nickel should clear easily. 3/4" = 19.05mm. Biggest 650B (Nevegal) you need about 15mm. Remember it's radius not diameter. This makes sense the Nickel would clear like the Butcher in this next example.

If my math is correct (questionable at times) and the dimensions given in one of my posts above from the guy at Santa Cruz for the Butcher are correct the 650B wheel should fit. The seat post is the only concern as everywhere else there is gobs of room.

He said with a 685mm 2.5 26" tire there is 11.5mm of seat tube clearance at bottom out. Nevegal is 704mm. 704-685 = 19mm. 19/2 = 9.5mm (remember radius) So the Nevegal needs that additional 9.5mm to clear but you have 11.5 to work with. So it should clear by just 2mm. Neo-Moto 2.3" should have 4mm of clearance. Enough so no shock shimming needed and with the seat tube your not gonna run into the issue of mud and rocks jamming in there like you might at a chain stay yoke. I know the Santa Cruz guy said they like to have a minimum of 8mm seat tube clearance but if I had one of these bikes it would be on 650B wheels in a heartbeat.

Now if only SC would put a 12mm axle and an ISCG mount on these bikes.
 

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With 3/4" the largest current 650B the Nickel should clear easily. 3/4" = 19.05mm. Biggest 650B (Nevegal) you need about 15mm. Remember it's radius not diameter. This makes sense the Nickel would clear like the Butcher in this next example.

If my math is correct (questionable at times) and the dimensions given in one of my posts above from the guy at Santa Cruz for the Butcher are correct the 650B wheel should fit. The seat post is the only concern as everywhere else there is gobs of room.

He said with a 685mm 2.5 26" tire there is 11.5mm of seat tube clearance at bottom out. Nevegal is 704mm. 704-685 = 19mm. 19/2 = 9.5mm (remember radius) So the Nevegal needs that additional 9.5mm to clear but you have 11.5 to work with. So it should clear by just 2mm. Neo-Moto 2.3" should have 4mm of clearance. Enough so no shock shimming needed and with the seat tube your not gonna run into the issue of mud and rocks jamming in there like you might at a chain stay yoke. I know the Santa Cruz guy said they like to have a minimum of 8mm seat tube clearance but if I had one of these bikes it would be on 650B wheels in a heartbeat.

Now if only SC would put a 12mm axle and an ISCG mount on these bikes.
Hopefully somebody with a nickel will try it out so we all know for sure. Only thing holding me back from pulling the trigger in a couple of months.
 
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