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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have a 2004 XL Santa Cruz Blur (XT integrated build kit, FOX RL in the back and FOX RLC in front) that is ghost shifting on me. The problem usually occurs when travelling at about 30 km/h over small roots and rolling bumps when the bike is in the middle ring and on the 5,6 and 7 cogs of the cassette. The problem also occurs in the big ring (I am having a hard time figuring out if the bike is shifting up or down the cassette - I am using rapid rise derailleur) - I have not checked the shifting yet with the shock off and the suspension compressed at various points in the travel.

So far I have checked the derailleur hanger with the PARK tool and it is straight - there is no damage to the derailleur what so ever. Bolts are all tight including the cassette lock ring. The bike has about 600 km on it and the drive train is still great condition - no shark toothing. I have put new cables and housing on - and I am now using the Nokon cable housing. The cable housing runs are short, but not excessively short. I had to use a dremel tool to grind some of the cable housing mount because it is not sitting at the right angle so the cable was rubbing slightly (this is the top cable housing mount on the rear triangle). I have the B-tension in all the way and limits set correctly, chain length is good and I recently added more tension to the derailleur sping by changing the spring hole to increase the overall chain tension and limit the chain from slapping all over the place. I have played a lot with cable tension with minimal success. The rear triangle was checked as well and is within tolerance. I am running out of ideas and my local bike shops are stumped or unhelpful.

A couple of things that I was thinking was to change the chain from the XT to a SRAM and or run one piece of housing from the top tube mount to the derailleur and zip tie it down.

Other than that I am out of thoughts and I cannot find any other threads of other Blur owners experiencing the same problem. If you are experiencing a similar problem can you please shed some light on this issue. This problem is starting to become very frustrating. I have attached a couple of pictures so you can have a look at the cable routing. Thank you for your time. B
 

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I've had similar problems...

Drove me crazy for a little while. I ended up cutting the middle housing- between the front schock pivot and the rear triangle- a little shorter. It had been a bit longer, and I though that perhaps as the suspension was compressing, and the housing was bending, it might be picking up some slack in the cable, pulling it enough to cause a ghost shift. As I said, I cut it so that it is nearly straight now, with only a hit of a bend. I haven't had any problems since.
One thing to make sure of is that your housing is in the shape that it will usually be in BEFORE you cut it. Sometimes those steel strands can become uneven and cause some funky shifting.
good luck.
 

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slither said:
I have a 2004 XL Santa Cruz Blur (XT integrated build kit, FOX RL in the back and FOX RLC in front) that is ghost shifting on me. The problem usually occurs when travelling at about 30 km/h over small roots and rolling bumps when the bike is in the middle ring and on the 5,6 and 7 cogs of the cassette. The problem also occurs in the big ring (I am having a hard time figuring out if the bike is shifting up or down the cassette - I am using rapid rise derailleur) - I have not checked the shifting yet with the shock off and the suspension compressed at various points in the travel.

So far I have checked the derailleur hanger with the PARK tool and it is straight - there is no damage to the derailleur what so ever. Bolts are all tight including the cassette lock ring. The bike has about 600 km on it and the drive train is still great condition - no shark toothing. I have put new cables and housing on - and I am now using the Nokon cable housing. The cable housing runs are short, but not excessively short. I had to use a dremel tool to grind some of the cable housing mount because it is not sitting at the right angle so the cable was rubbing slightly (this is the top cable housing mount on the rear triangle). I have the B-tension in all the way and limits set correctly, chain length is good and I recently added more tension to the derailleur sping by changing the spring hole to increase the overall chain tension and limit the chain from slapping all over the place. I have played a lot with cable tension with minimal success. The rear triangle was checked as well and is within tolerance. I am running out of ideas and my local bike shops are stumped or unhelpful.

A couple of things that I was thinking was to change the chain from the XT to a SRAM and or run one piece of housing from the top tube mount to the derailleur and zip tie it down.

Other than that I am out of thoughts and I cannot find any other threads of other Blur owners experiencing the same problem. If you are experiencing a similar problem can you please shed some light on this issue. This problem is starting to become very frustrating. Thank you for your time. B
Sorry to hear about your problems. I have the same bike with the same build kit and have not experienced any problems. I don't have any other ideas to add as it sounds like you know more about bike mechanics than I do. But I am interested in your comment about tightening the rear derailleur spring to minimize chain slap. How do you do that?
 

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stretched cable maybe

I had the same problem after a couple months. I think the cable's just stretched after initial use. If I can remember correctly, all I did was turn the barrel adjusters at the derailleur to tighten the cable, and the ghost shifting stopped.
 

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slither said:
I have a 2004 XL Santa Cruz Blur (XT integrated build kit, FOX RL in the back and FOX RLC in front) that is ghost shifting on me. The problem usually occurs when travelling at about 30 km/h over small roots and rolling bumps when the bike is in the middle ring and on the 5,6 and 7 cogs of the cassette. The problem also occurs in the big ring (I am having a hard time figuring out if the bike is shifting up or down the cassette - I am using rapid rise derailleur) - I have not checked the shifting yet with the shock off and the suspension compressed at various points in the travel.

So far I have checked the derailleur hanger with the PARK tool and it is straight - there is no damage to the derailleur what so ever. Bolts are all tight including the cassette lock ring. The bike has about 600 km on it and the drive train is still great condition - no shark toothing. I have put new cables and housing on - and I am now using the Nokon cable housing. The cable housing runs are short, but not excessively short. I had to use a dremel tool to grind some of the cable housing mount because it is not sitting at the right angle so the cable was rubbing slightly (this is the top cable housing mount on the rear triangle). I have the B-tension in all the way and limits set correctly, chain length is good and I recently added more tension to the derailleur sping by changing the spring hole to increase the overall chain tension and limit the chain from slapping all over the place. I have played a lot with cable tension with minimal success. The rear triangle was checked as well and is within tolerance. I am running out of ideas and my local bike shops are stumped or unhelpful.

A couple of things that I was thinking was to change the chain from the XT to a SRAM and or run one piece of housing from the top tube mount to the derailleur and zip tie it down.

Other than that I am out of thoughts and I cannot find any other threads of other Blur owners experiencing the same problem. If you are experiencing a similar problem can you please shed some light on this issue. This problem is starting to become very frustrating. I have attached a couple of pictures so you can have a look at the cable routing. Thank you for your time. B
I too have a RR rear der, and a LOT of ghost shifting on my Blur.

Not only that, but I had to warranty TWO Blur frames, and the Ghost Shifting is on ALL THREE Frames.

These are my thoughts. All speculation and NO PROOF.

I'm kinda big at 185#, this contributes to some flex. I think the RR der. is FLAWED, in that it will move easier one way or another than a trad der. Though Shimano will deny this forever, I am ADDiCTED to RR ... and I've had all vintages of XTR models, and the NEW XT model ... and have put on trad der. inbetween, and they greatly cut down on ghost. I think some ghost is inherent in the RR.

I've had a LOT of SIS housing with the linear wire threads in the housing "sneak" out past the ferrule. When the shifting gets bad, I look for this first. I change the ferrules, and change the housing for that piece. I think something crappy has happened w/ respect to housing / ferrules .... lower tolerance in manufacturing.

Dirty Housing. I have found when the ghost shifting gets worse, clean or replace the housing (and cable sometimes), right away. I think the RR der + Blur + dirty housing = ghost shifting.

Kink in cable right at cable guide at shock mount area: Several times, I have had a kink develop in the shift cable, right at the housing cable guide point next to the shock. I think that sometimes you shift a bunch of gears, and somehow slack is created in the shift cable, and that it gets pinched while slack at that point, and gets a kink. Look for that.

Cassette bodies fit like Sh!!T on many freehub bodies. There is DEFINITELY tolerance problems between things like CK hubs and cassettes .... I put a wafer thin spacer, on the back of my cassette, to take up this slack, and this keeps the cassette from wobbling around, making a lot of noise, and shifting a tiny bit worse.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Changing Derailleur Tension

To change the spring tension unscrew the small allen bolt on the undersurface of the derailleur which will allow you to remove the cage from the derailleur body - watch carefully as you take it apart to ensure that when you put the spring back you put it in the next hole over from where it started. Once you open it up you will know what I am talking about. Hope this helps. B. The link below will give you an exploded view of the derailleur (PDF format)

http://bike.shimano.com/product_images/RD/ev_images/EV-RD-M760-2269.pdf
 

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Looking at the pics, I would suggest the following:

1. lengthen your housing at the derailluer by 1.5-2 inches. I would try this first and then play with the trim on your shifter. if you are still having problems goto #2

2. Lengthen the middle section of your housing by 1"

As for the slinky housing, I have no experience with it.

-Sp

slither said:
I have a 2004 XL Santa Cruz Blur (XT integrated build kit, FOX RL in the back and FOX RLC in front) that is ghost shifting on me. The problem usually occurs when travelling at about 30 km/h over small roots and rolling bumps when the bike is in the middle ring and on the 5,6 and 7 cogs of the cassette. The problem also occurs in the big ring (I am having a hard time figuring out if the bike is shifting up or down the cassette - I am using rapid rise derailleur) - I have not checked the shifting yet with the shock off and the suspension compressed at various points in the travel.
B
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Housing Length

What is the reasoning for lengthening the cable housing? I have heard thoughts both ways -some people say the housing across the pivot should be as short as possible - pictures of Blurs in one on the other threads shows most of the bikes with a longer piece of housing at the pivot. Thanks. B
 

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I agree with Single Pivot - Both sections of housing need to be longer. And then get out and enjoy your ride! ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Rider Error?

After a day of tweaking the Blur and then testing out the small modifications that I made (changed derailleur housing length across the pivot and at the derailleur loop, changed from and XT chain to a SRAM PC-59 and small adjustments in cable tension) I was disappointed to experience some ghost shifting once again. When riding with a friend tonight, we may have come up with a possible solution to the problem. Maybe it is just rider error? I tend to ride near the bottom of the cassette in the middle ring in rough terrain where I should be in the big ring to ensure a good chain line and ultimately some more tension on the chain due to the diameter of the large ring. I also tend to ride at a high cadence - likely anywhere between 100 and 125 rpm over the rough terrain. The design principle of the Blur is that there has to be some amount of tension on the chain with each pedal stroke to counteract the downward momentum of the cyclist. Without chain tension, the VPP design of the Blur does not work. A common theme in some of the MTBR reviews that I have noticed is that people who tend to dislike the Blur experience some bob. The bob that is felt of seen in a bicycle rear suspension is a function of a lot of different bike setup factors, but if you don't pedal in circles you will get bob. Pedal mashers will be disappointed when they take a Blur for a test ride to notice that the rear triangle moves ever so slightly with each revolution. Now getting back to my bike and the shifting problem, what my friend and I came up with is that because I pedal with a high cadence there are moments where there is relatively little tension on the chain making the rear triangle move perhaps too quickly. With the chain slack, rough terrain, high cadence, wrong gear combination the chain either jumps up or down the cassette or jumps off the cog teeth causing the ghost shifting. On the way home I tried to pedal with a lower cadence and in the big ring and noticed less ghosting. I also slowed the rebound about 3 clicks from the approximate middle position on the FOX RL shock. My previous bike to the Blur was a hardtail so maybe as I have been riding the Blur my cycling technique has worsened because there is often some movement in the rear triangle while pedaling - maybe I am losing the circular pedaling everyone strives for. After all this writing don't get me wrong I love the Blur - awesome bike - I just think that maybe there is some rider error that is giving me the grief. If anyone has any thoughts please reply.
 

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Not Ghosting: just skipping

I have been riding with "slither" for a number of years now and must start by profiling him as an experienced rider. He is probably the 3rd or 4th fastest XC rider in a club of about 80 to 100 members in a city of 120,000. He rides hard, but I would not characterize him as abusive on equipment. Untill this year he was racing a hardtail quite successfully, with minimal bicycle maintainance. I think this is a testament to relatively smooth riding. He does have pedalling cadence higher than most. Probably 110-125rpm for most for his riding and very infrequently less than 100rpm.

I went for a ride last night with "slither" and agree with the analogy of what is happening on his Blur. I have had ghost shifting problems before and I think that in order to provide some clarity to the group, a better term would be to refer to this problem as chain skipping. Primarily I think skipping is what is happening because the chain does not always change gears as the problem occurs. But it does jump up and down vertically on the cassette. Sometimes but not always, this results in a gear change as well. Also, ghost shifting as related to a powertrain or powertrain setup problem should occur in the bike stand as well as on the road or trail. This problem does not occur on the bike stand and can only be duplicted under very specific circumstances.

The scenario: In order to experience this problem on the Blur the bicycle and rider have to meet three specific conditions.

1. The pedalling cadence must be extremely high. 115rpm or higher. Probably closer to 125rpm in our case.

2. The rate of travel must be quite high 20+ mph.

3. The terrain must provide a surface with successive abrupt bumps (in our case roots), large enough to generate sufficient rear triangle movement, yet small enough to allow the rider to maintain a speed in excess of approx. 20mph.

To understand the mechanism of what is happening here, it is important to note that the stable platform that the Blur provides is a function of geometry and chain tension. As the cyclist pedals down on the crank, the chain becomes taut and pulls the rear triangle "not only" down, but also "in". This is important to note in this particular case as the opposite also becomes true as the suspension is compressed, the rear triangle travels "up" and "back" or "out" if you prefer. It is this "in" and "out" motion that occurs as the rear triangle tracks bumps that generates chain slack during the "in" motion. If sufficient torque is applied at the crank to maintain chain tension, chain slack will be taken up as the cyclist pedals. If there is insufficient tension, the chain becomes slack.
Slack in itself does not mean that chain skipping will occur. In this case it is combined with the fact that the bumps on the trail are small and successive, and the rate of travel is relatively fast to provide a movement of the rear triangle that is rapidly changing direction. In a word almost "chattering" or a heavy abupt "vibration". It is this "chattering" motion that allows the slack chain to be tossed up and down on the rear cassette and "skip", and in some extreme cases skip to another gear on the cassette or "ghost". The ghosting is of course more pronounced the more cross-shifted the chain is.

The easy solution to the problem is to provide more torque at the crank by pedaling at a lower cadence. This will increase chain tension and should minimize/eliminate the problem. A cadence of 125rpm is quite high by most standards and is probably accompanied by fluctuating pedal loads as opposed to a smooth pedal stroke throughout the complete rotation. The fluctuating loads at the crank produce fluctuating tension in the chain and exacerbate the chain slack issue.
Turning the rebound adjustment on the rear shock to a slower rebound setting would be beneficial in this instance in order to reduce the fall rate of the rear triangle, and minimize the amount of chain tension lost in any given amount of time by the "in" motion of the rear triangle.

S
 

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Wow. My head is spinning! :D

I do agree - You are in a bad gear combo and that will cause even more issues than just
ghost shifting. I also think you'll enjoy better shifting in the long run by ditching that SRAM
chain and either go back to the XT chain or step up to a Dura-Ace chain.

How is/was your suspension setup? Air pressure & rebound?

Here's my thoughts - Hardtail guys come to the world of full suspension and want that "hardtail-snap". They setup their bikes with more air pressure and rebound to try to mimick that hardtail feel. Generally I think they wind up dissapointed in the bikes performance because it's not setup to function as it was designed.

The VPP design must be setup properly to the riders weight. To little or too much air pressure negatively affects the performance of the design IMO.

Good luck, hope everything get's sorted out with your rig and you can start enjoying the benefits of that weapon!!! ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Reply from Scott Turner at Santa Cruz Bicycles

Here is what Scott Turner from Santa Cruz wrote in reply to my question:

From reading that thread, it seems like you are trying to put too many
possible frame design variables into the ghost shifting problem.
The Blur's VPP pivot and frame design itself should not affect the shifting
regardless of where you are in the travel, or what's happening to the
pivots. The chainline (Or alignment relationship between front and rear
cogs) should stay the same throughout the travel and regardless of what the
suspension is doing.
Ghost shifting is the chain wanting to move from the position set-by the
derailleurs. The things that can affect this are usually the numerous drive
train issues - improper drive train set-up, bent or damaged derailleurs,
derailleur cables being pulled or binding, bent cogs, worn freehub body, bad
chain or improper chain length, incorrect BB spindle length, etc.

>From just looking at those pics, it does look to me like you should have
more cable housing loop at the rear derailleur. Yours is pretty short and
could definitely be causing cable binding. Too much housing length at that
location is better than too little.

If you want to rule out the frame itself as possible being or adding to the
problem, I would check these things:

1. Rear derailleur hanger alignment.
This can get bent out of alignment by being hit by a rock, or even just by
dropping your bike down on the rear derailleur
If you are not familiar with this, there is a good description of the use of
this tool at the Park Tools website right here -
http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/DAG.shtml
Your local dealer should have this tool and can quickly check this for you
and adjust it if necessary.

2. Loose pivot hardware.
Unlikely but possible.
You should periodically (every 3-6 months or so, depending on use) check all
the frame hardware torque specs, and re-Loctite hardware as needed.
(Your dealer should also have checked this after the first couple rides on
your new frame)
The torque spec info is on the Blur Tech Sheet found here -
http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/tech/blur_tech.pdf

3. Bent frame.
Very unlikely, but possible.
Have your dealer check the rear wheel tracking and relationship between
front and rear triangle.
This is done here at the factory before shipping, but it's possible to knock
things out in a bad crash, shipping damage, etc.
 

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I'm willing to bet...

...most of the variables that you are considering have nothing to do with the ghost shifting. If you have already lengthened the rear section of cable, I would concentrate on the middle section as it gave me the most trouble on my old style bullit (similar cable routing). Now it's just trial and error on the cable length. I remember I had to play with the cable lengths and make small changes of approxomiately 1/2" at a time. Once you get rid of most of the ghost shifting, use the barrel adjusters to make small trim (2 clicks) adjustments to the derailluer.

Someone mentioned the SRAM chain. I have no idea if it will help or not, but my other bike has SRAM x9 derailluer/shifters/chain and it shifts noticeably harder/rougher than my shimano xt derailluer/shifters/chain with a well worn cassette.

hope things work out.

-Sp

slither said:
Here is what Scott Turner from Santa Cruz wrote in reply to my question:

From reading that thread, it seems like you are trying to put too many
possible frame design variables into the ghost shifting problem.
The Blur's VPP pivot and frame design itself should not affect the shifting
regardless of where you are in the travel, or what's happening to the
pivots. The chainline (Or alignment relationship between front and rear
cogs) should stay the same throughout the travel and regardless of what the
suspension is doing.
Ghost shifting is the chain wanting to move from the position set-by the
derailleurs. The things that can affect this are usually the numerous drive
train issues - improper drive train set-up, bent or damaged derailleurs,
derailleur cables being pulled or binding, bent cogs, worn freehub body, bad
chain or improper chain length, incorrect BB spindle length, etc.

>From just looking at those pics, it does look to me like you should have
more cable housing loop at the rear derailleur. Yours is pretty short and
could definitely be causing cable binding. Too much housing length at that
location is better than too little.

If you want to rule out the frame itself as possible being or adding to the
problem, I would check these things:

1. Rear derailleur hanger alignment.
This can get bent out of alignment by being hit by a rock, or even just by
dropping your bike down on the rear derailleur
If you are not familiar with this, there is a good description of the use of
this tool at the Park Tools website right here -
http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/DAG.shtml
Your local dealer should have this tool and can quickly check this for you
and adjust it if necessary.

2. Loose pivot hardware.
Unlikely but possible.
You should periodically (every 3-6 months or so, depending on use) check all
the frame hardware torque specs, and re-Loctite hardware as needed.
(Your dealer should also have checked this after the first couple rides on
your new frame)
The torque spec info is on the Blur Tech Sheet found here -
http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/tech/blur_tech.pdf

3. Bent frame.
Very unlikely, but possible.
Have your dealer check the rear wheel tracking and relationship between
front and rear triangle.
This is done here at the factory before shipping, but it's possible to knock
things out in a bad crash, shipping damage, etc.
 

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It sounds like you've gotten a world of good advice already, but here's my $0.02 anyway.

Don't change a bunch of things at once! You may fix your problem, but you won't know exactly what fixed it, and may stumble back into it the next time you work on your bike,

In my experience, ghost shifting is most often caused by wierdness in the derailleur cable. Even hardtails can ghost shift if the cable's binding up (dirty, or the housing's wires have slipped). Add the motion of a f/s, and you get tightening/loosening of the cable w/ sus travel.

Try using a full-length housing. Run it really loose at first, just to see if it cures your bike's ills. If so, zip-tie it at your cable guides and go ride. If it still works, there's your "pattern" for cable housing lengths.

Probably too simplistic, but I always start with the obvious.

--M
 

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I just fought with the same problem for 2 weeks before I figgured it out
on my blur it was the alignment of the cable guides on the rear triangle, they were cocked off from each other and the cable actually wore into the guide and the cable rubbing on the guide caused my ghost shifting.
I ran a full housing from the guides above the shock and that took care of the problem.

Hope that helps
 

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Another vote for 1-piece housing.

slither said:
I have a 2004 XL Santa Cruz Blur (XT integrated build kit, FOX RL in the back and FOX RLC in front) that is ghost shifting on me. The problem usually occurs when travelling at about 30 km/h over small roots and rolling bumps when the bike is in the middle ring and on the 5,6 and 7 cogs of the cassette. The problem also occurs in the big ring (I am having a hard time figuring out if the bike is shifting up or down the cassette - I am using rapid rise derailleur) - I have not checked the shifting yet with the shock off and the suspension compressed at various points in the travel.

So far I have checked the derailleur hanger with the PARK tool and it is straight - there is no damage to the derailleur what so ever. Bolts are all tight including the cassette lock ring. The bike has about 600 km on it and the drive train is still great condition - no shark toothing. I have put new cables and housing on - and I am now using the Nokon cable housing. The cable housing runs are short, but not excessively short. I had to use a dremel tool to grind some of the cable housing mount because it is not sitting at the right angle so the cable was rubbing slightly (this is the top cable housing mount on the rear triangle). I have the B-tension in all the way and limits set correctly, chain length is good and I recently added more tension to the derailleur sping by changing the spring hole to increase the overall chain tension and limit the chain from slapping all over the place. I have played a lot with cable tension with minimal success. The rear triangle was checked as well and is within tolerance. I am running out of ideas and my local bike shops are stumped or unhelpful.

A couple of things that I was thinking was to change the chain from the XT to a SRAM and or run one piece of housing from the top tube mount to the derailleur and zip tie it down.

Other than that I am out of thoughts and I cannot find any other threads of other Blur owners experiencing the same problem. If you are experiencing a similar problem can you please shed some light on this issue. This problem is starting to become very frustrating. I have attached a couple of pictures so you can have a look at the cable routing. Thank you for your time. B
I'm fixing to try out some of that type of cable housing you're running on your Blur, but despite that, I've been running 1-piece housing for some time now on a couple of FSRs and a couple of Bullits. The newest Bullit already came designed for 1-piece housing, and I modified my other 3 bikes. I began noticing how trouble-free my newer Bullit's shifting was, and how much longer it held adjustments and tuning. I've been so impressed with the benefits of 1-piece housing that I even drilled the 2 cable stops on the swingarm out to a diameter appropriate to accept the housing straight through the stops. I'm now tempted to drill out the frame cable stops instead of using the housing clamps that are currently installed in them. In addition I use a rollamajig at the derailleur on my Shimano derailleurs. My 2 SRAM derailleurs already have an ideal cable entry location and don't need one. The only recommendation I have for running 1-piece housing is to secure the housing with a zip-tie in a strategic location on the swingarm so it doesn't try to walk up or down the swingarm during the suspension articulation.
 

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a couple more thoughts

I have a year old LG blur with XTR and have no shifting issues (shifts and maintains gears perfectly). I DID have an issue initially... This likely does not apply directly to the thread starter but others my find it helpful..

Turns out the XTR cable ends caps are plastic and the wires inside the cable shifted and even punched through the end caps resulting in lots of compression in the system. I credit this slightly to poor (but light) design of the XTR end caps but more to poor assembly by the shop (cables end cut poorly). I do all my own work so I removed all the old shift cables and replaced them with Avid flak jackets (which I totally love and have on 4 bikes now). Call me anal, but I cut my cable with a dremel cut off wheel (to ensure it is completely flat and smooth) and the metal ends caps make the set up nice and tight with no compression. So now I have zero issues (btw I have 700+ miles on the bike since the cable change in every where from Moab to Whistler and everything works great).

So... does is apply to you, not likely with you metal cable housing but you might want to be very careful where the end feed into the stops and as others have said use more housing than less as nice easy loops are better than tight ones (also letting air out of your shocks might give a good check to ensure there are no kinks at full compression.

My 2 pennies...
Geoff
 
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