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I am Walt
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6,272 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I was out at MMP yesterday for an X-Mas Day ride, and did the Sport, Tech and Long Loops at the Competitive Tracks. I didn't notice anything unusual on the Sport and Tech Loops, but it sure seemed that a number of sections on the Long Loop had been "cleaned." In particular, some sections on the long down-grade run on the south side of the loop, and on a number of the subsequent rocky washes. These areas have lots of loose cobbles and some embedded larger cobbles, and it looked like (and felt like) lots of the loose rock had been moved to the sides, resulting in a much cleaner line. Now it could simply be because of heavy traffic, but I ride there enough to feel it is unusual.

Any other regulars out there notice anything?
 

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MBAA!
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294 Posts
Im going riding there next time for the second time, last time was almost a year ago already. We do the Sport Loop, and last time I was quite frustrated at all the loose ground below my treads... does this mean it has improved? If so, hallelujah! I know there have been some cleanup crews trying to work on some trails (or so I think) around me, including SoMo. Even though they havent done a thing here to help, maybe they did something to MMP. Or they dont exist, and are in fact a figment of my imagination. Either way, should I expect it to connect better now? Last time it was obnoxious, with our lesser-skilled people sliding off the sides off the trails.
 

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Flight Junkie
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832 Posts
that's too bad. I'll have to check it out. Most people consider that they really degraded Pemberton when they cleaned it up a few years ago. As for the competitive loops, I wish they would leave them alone. It's suppose to be tough, it's called mountain biking.
 

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Ouch, I am hot!
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4,765 Posts
As far as I am concerned, they can sanitize the snot out of those loops. They are called the Competitive Loops for a reason. They are racing loops. These days, racing means glorified road races in what is known to most of us as "dirt". While I have never raced on these loops, I have ridden then enough to know that if I was hammering these trails in a race, they would jar the crapola out of me. At top speed, and repeated, these loops will turn your kidneys into mush. Since there is absolutely no tech value there anyway (call me an elitist if you want, but I suspect most people will agree with me), why not make them better for racing.
 

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I am Walt
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6,272 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
.downhillfaster. said:
Now it sounds right up your alley! Maybe in 2006 they will make an actual dirt sidewalk in your neighborhood, and you'll never actually have to get in your car to go ride!

If you want challenge, your know where to go / who to call.

DHF'r
Thanks for the uber-rider elitism...once again, if it's not shuttling on SoMo, it's not challenging.
 

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Ouch, I am hot!
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4,765 Posts
.downhillfaster. said:
Elitist...:D
Yea. This coming from the same guy that just called Walt a pansy in his last post on this thread. Funny/ironic as hell. Oh, let me add one of those little smiley faces so we all know this is just friendly fun.
 

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It rains here. :(
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1,314 Posts
Dirdir said:
As far as I am concerned, they can sanitize the snot out of those loops. They are called the Competitive Loops for a reason. They are racing loops. These days, racing means glorified road races in what is known to most of us as "dirt". While I have never raced on these loops, I have ridden then enough to know that if I was hammering these trails in a race, they would jar the crapola out of me. At top speed, and repeated, these loops will turn your kidneys into mush. Since there is absolutely no tech value there anyway (call me an elitist if you want, but I suspect most people will agree with me), why not make them better for racing.

Surprisingly, I do agree. :D These loops are fast, let's keep em that way. Neither one of the other competitive tracks at Estrella or White Tanks even come close to the speed or fun factor that McDowell offers. White Tanks continues to gradually slow, and there is no speed at Estrella unless your legs bring it (oh ok, maybe the last hill :rolleyes: ).

I don't think that moving some loose sloppy rocks on these trails takes anything away from the trail itself, it just allows you to move a bit faster as you plow through it. There is nothing challenging about loose stones on a long gradual downhill, now loose rocks on a steep downhill is another story.
 

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I am Walt
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6,272 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Dirdir said:
As far as I am concerned, they can sanitize the snot out of those loops. They are called the Competitive Loops for a reason. They are racing loops. These days, racing means glorified road races in what is known to most of us as "dirt". While I have never raced on these loops, I have ridden then enough to know that if I was hammering these trails in a race, they would jar the crapola out of me. At top speed, and repeated, these loops will turn your kidneys into mush. Since there is absolutely no tech value there anyway (call me an elitist if you want, but I suspect most people will agree with me), why not make them better for racing.
Stupid comments, Geoff. Thanks for the contribution.

The Competitive Tracks are great mountain biking. Yes, parts are rocky, but no rockier than your personal mecca of the T100 area. It's called...mountain biking, which includes rocks. And yeah, they're not technical, so...that means they're not worth riding? Once again, does everything have to be gnarly technical to be worth riding? (And psst...last I saw, you're not one of the tech uber-riders...)
 

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I am Walt
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6,272 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
.downhillfaster. said:
Not true at all! Why don't you try riding somewhere outside of the preserves or MMP and then talk to me...
Rode SoMo today - East/West Loops, Javelina, Ridgeline, Beverly Canyon. SoMo, Hawes and T100 area all hit regularly - as much as MMP and the Preserve. I talk up the McDowell Sonoran Preserve because it's not well known and it's nice mountain biking...oh, but it's not technical, so I guess I shouldn't waste my, or anybody else's, time...
 

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I am Walt
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6,272 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Umbrous said:
Surprisingly, I do agree. :D These loops are fast, let's keep em that way. Neither one of the other competitive tracks at Estrella or White Tanks even come close to the speed or fun factor that McDowell offers. White Tanks continues to gradually slow, and there is no speed at Estrella unless your legs bring it (oh ok, maybe the last hill :rolleyes: ).

I don't think that moving some loose sloppy rocks on these trails takes anything away from the trail itself, it just allows you to move a bit faster as you plow through it. There is nothing challenging about loose stones on a long gradual downhill, now loose rocks on a steep downhill is another story.
90% of the Competitive Tracks, including just about all of the Sport and Tech Loops, are fast, clean singletrack. Most of the rocky parts that are on the Long Loop don't slow you down and are in short sections that require you to handle the bike a bit. Doesn't compromise the pace or flow.
 

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It rains here. :(
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waltaz said:
90% of the Competitive Tracks, including just about all of the Sport and Tech Loops, are fast, clean singletrack. Most of the rocky parts that are on the Long Loop don't slow you down and are in short sections that require you to handle the bike a bit. Doesn't compromise the pace or flow.

That's true it doesn't compromise the flow, however I feel the loose rocks can slow you down a bit.

Don't get me wrong, McDowell is the ultimate in fast tracks and I don't want it changed. There is room for improvement however, for one repairing all of the divots that idiots created by using nothing but their back brakes.
 

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I am Walt
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6,272 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Umbrous said:
There is room for improvement however, for one repairing all of the divots that idiots created by using nothing but their back brakes.
I'm with you on that...lots of that at MMP.
 

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Pivoteer
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I just wish people would leave well enough alone. Part of the draw of moutain biking is to "be one with nature" for lack of a better saying. We should be riding the trails as they were intended. Nothing pisses me off more than someone changing the trail to make it easier. This happens often on National, as those that cannot seem to ride it feel it necessary to make changes so they can ride. Anyone who has been on national with any frequency knows the exact location I am talking about.

Then everyone wonders why CC racing is quickly loosing sponsorship, while DH and freeride events are increasing in popularity. Maybe, as stated above, it's because mountain bike racing is about speed. It is nothing more than a road course with dirt. Where is the excitement? I want to see racers wrecking, carnage, and riders with more skill be able to actually pass the cross-training road racer who these new races seem to favor. I've heard (have not seen with my own 2 eyes-so it is just rumored until someone can confirm) that the little rock drop on the backside of the switchback climb at White Tanks has been smoothed out! :confused: That was the best place to watch the race. I am not a fast rider, but have reasonable skills, and trails like White Tanks and Estrella would be the only places I could really compete. If i wanted to ride a smooth course, I would be on the road!!

Sorry for the rant, but I felt it!
 

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Ouch, I am hot!
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waltaz said:
Stupid comments, Geoff. Thanks for the contribution.

The Competitive Tracks are great mountain biking. Yes, parts are rocky, but no rockier than your personal mecca of the T100 area. It's called...mountain biking, which includes rocks. And yeah, they're not technical, so...that means they're not worth riding? Once again, does everything have to be gnarly technical to be worth riding? (And psst...last I saw, you're not one of the tech uber-riders...)
No, they are not stupid comments. Lets take a vote and see what is more stupid. My comments or you attacking me (yet again) for no reason.

Here is the bottom line as far as my comments go. They are race loops. The faster the better. As such, sanitize away. I don't care. I don't go there for tech. I go there to go fast.

Because of the layout there, hammering these trails at speed, and in particular, repeatedly, like in a race, is really brutal. For sure more brutal than most of the other MBAA race courses in Arizona. Much worse than the 24 HOP. Part of the reason is that you can go really fast on the loops. Another reason is the type of rocks and such there that jar the hell out of you at speed.

PS: Psst, I may not be a tech-uber-rider, whatever that is, but I can ride circles around a certain rider that likes to attack me.

PSS: I guess this is what I get for defending you against Riggs. He was the one that called you a pansy.

PSSS: I never said the Loops were not worth riding. They are great. Especially if you want to hall ass, just not over and over again.
 

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I am Walt
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6,272 Posts
Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
.downhillfaster. said:
Huh, must have just missed you, because we were there too. Or maybe you were one of the XC SS priques that couldn't yield to an uphill rider...now that I think about it, it probably was you & your elitist group! Solves that mystery...

DHF'r
3 - 5 pm...was on gears (nice!)...you wouldn't have been slumming on that (relatively non-technical) end of the mountain, would you?

Plus, I always yield.
 

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I am Walt
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6,272 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Dirdir said:
PS: Psst, I may not be a tech-uber-rider, whatever that is, but I can ride circles around a certain rider that likes to attack me.
I don't think so...but, whatever...I don't have anything to prove. If it makes you feel better, than you can ride circles around me... :rolleyes:

Geoff, seriously, your comments these days border on the innane and render you irrelevant and annoying, inter alia, rather than amusing.
 

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I am Walt
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6,272 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Hmmm...where to start...
.downhillfaster. said:
Buena Vista - National - Mormon - 24th street...not at that time though, but with your attitude lately towards everyone that isn't in "your gang",

And that would be exemplified by...what? By me riding with a friend today? Or by myself yesterday? Or with a whole "gang" organized by Titusbro on Sat.? Or with a bunch of new friends from MTBR (based on my ride posting to all comers) over the last couple weeks showing them my backyard trails? Or with zinger-uk a few weeks ago after he arrived in-country? Yeah, I'm definitely an insular, "my gang" kind of guy...

.downhillfaster. said:
it wouldn't have surprised me if it was you throwing elbows going downhill on a little rock chute, cause you couldn't take the big exposure line down...that my buddy rode up due to the inconvenience of said a$$hole that couldn't stop for 2 seconds to let us pass...
And that is relevant to me...how? Sounds like a little conjecture to me, considering I wasn't there.

.downhillfaster. said:
And it wouldn't be slumming Walter, because some (or MOST) of us are "well-rounded" riders of many different disciplines, not just XC & SS. I'm still ready to school you when you grow a set & are ready to learn something out of your comfort zone.
I ride what I feel like each time I go out - bike and trail. I consider myself well-rounded. Again, the point is F-U-N and S-P-O-R-T. Once again, it seems that unless you hit the DH runs with "big exposure" you don't "have a set"...
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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34,768 Posts
Dirdir said:
Here is the bottom line as far as my comments go. They are race loops. The faster the better. As such, sanitize away. I don't care. I don't go there for tech. I go there to go fast.
Um, so you can't go fast on rocks?

Do you assume that race=smooth in everyone's mind? How ignorant of you.

There's all kinds of terrain that can be included in a race.

Smooth banked terrain.
Choppy rocky terrain.
Loose rocky terrain.
Big rocks and slabs.

All of these can be ridden fast or slow. It doesn't have to be "smooth" to be ridden fast. Where exactly is that "requirement" in your "mountain bike race handbook"??
 

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Ouch, I am hot!
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Jayem said:
Um, so you can't go fast on rocks?

Do you assume that race=smooth in everyone's mind? How ignorant of you.

There's all kinds of terrain that can be included in a race.

Smooth banked terrain.
Choppy rocky terrain.
Loose rocky terrain.
Big rocks and slabs.

All of these can be ridden fast or slow. It doesn't have to be "smooth" to be ridden fast. Where exactly is that "requirement" in your "mountain bike race handbook"??
Ah, another d!ckweed that likes to attack people. Eh, no worries. I may be so ignorant that I didn't know one could ride fast on rocks, but at least I know that you have this nasty habbit of acting like an a$$hole. So be it.

Here is my 180. Get ready for it because its a masterpiece. Ready.

Damn trail sanitization to hell. Those [email protected]. Whoever fuked up the Competitive Loops be damned in hell. They ruined the best trails in Phoenix.

Merry Christmas.
 
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