[Radical337]

So I've been mountain biking since 2005 but I've always ridden XC style single track. Started getting into more enduro/DH stuff last year and with that came the natural progression from a HT to a new FS bike earlier this year. It came spec'd with a RS Revelation RC fork (which if you saw my other post has been promptly sent right back to SRAM for warranty service). And that's when I really started digging into fork technology and researching RS and Fox front suspension. And in doing so, it was obvious that it is generally agreed that MoCo is basically...well, garbage as most like to call it.

So my question is this: what is it about the Charger compression damping that makes it so much better/superior/plusher/whatever? By that, I don't necessarily mean the technology behind it….I get that part. More along the lines of what can I expect? Is the ride quality a noticeable and undeniably better experience and if so, at what ability level? I mean, does it take a 'great' rider to benefit from the Charger upgrade or will a 'good' rider or even an entry level rider notice/benefit from the difference? Or, are the differences so nuanced, that unless you are really pushing the limit of the fork (huge gaps/drops, big jumps, unforgiving rock gardens, etc) would it be considered almost a waste of money?

I called Push Ind and talked to them about just servicing the entire thing and while they were at it, add the Charger 2.1 w/ the HC97 upgrade. But the $700 price tag for that had me hit the brakes. Plus I just decided to ride the bike with the proper functioning MoCo for a season before possibly upgrading over the winter. That way I can see and feel for myself the true difference in ride quality.

Just looking for some real-world feedback to make more of an informed decision before I pull the trigger over the winter and invest the $$ in it.

Thanks in advance for any comments and input.

 

[Shredur]

What kind of bike are you on? I have a Yari with the motion control damper and it’s a fine fork in all but the rowdiest/gnarly descents. I wouldn’t even consider upgrading it if I was only riding somewhere like DuPont..Pisgah on the other hand is a bit more demanding. Where will you be riding?


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[Radical337]

I live in northwest Arkansas which I'm sure you know is fast becoming a mecca for inner city urban trail riding in the states. But in the last few years they have added lots of DH runs (black and dbl black diamond), jump lines and lots of technical rock gardens. Plus a dedicated mountain that is for the most part expert level stuff, Coler Reserve…waaay beyond my ability level. So there’s no shortage of stout riding here these days. So I’ve been 'trying' to learn to ride these without killing myself. But the truth is I didn't need a FS bike...at all. I wanted one and wanted a decent one that didn't require a kidney donation. So I sold my Kona Explosif for a Marin Hawk Hill 3 after a ton of research. It’s a good short travel trail bike that is more bike than I will ever need – with the MoCo RS Revelation fork and hence, here we are. And to be clear, for every time I’ve read where someone labels MoCo dampening garbage and there’s plenty of that as I said, I can always find someone like you who basically says unless you are seriously shredding pro level lines, the MoCo damping is fine. Anyway, it just makes me wonder if those who are labeling it garbage are in fact expert level riders who actually benefit from the upgraded damper or more like wanna be expert level riders who say it more to fit in with the status quo than anything else. I mean for an average to even above average rider, is the diff in performance worth the price….? Idk…you tell me.

 

[Jayem]

Generally, lower end dampers cannot deal with increases in shaft speed well, so as you start taking faster (sharp edged) hits at speed, they become overwhelmed and spike or are harsh. Less aggressive riders may never really experience this, but when they try to ride harder, the equipment may not be able to keep up. The simpler way to say it is that above a certain speed, it will get worse and worse as it encounters bigger and bigger impacts.

 

[scottzg]

And to be clear, for every time I've read where someone labels MoCo dampening garbage and there's plenty of that as I said, I can always find someone like you who basically says unless you are seriously shredding pro level lines, the MoCo damping is fine. Anyway, it just makes me wonder if those who are labeling it garbage are in fact expert level riders who actually benefit from the upgraded damper or more like wanna be expert level riders who say it more to fit in with the status quo than anything else. I mean for an average to even above average rider, is the diff in performance worth the price….? Idk…you tell me.

I'm easily an 'expert level rider,' and sometimes the worst rider in the group. Expert rider sounds impressive until you are one; then you're just some schlub with a hobby. Expert riders are completely unremarkable.

If you're getting a thrill out of cleaning that technical bit of trail, seeking out new challenging/interesting/faster lines, going fast, maybe getting a bit airborne... a fork that behaves inconsistently will hamper your progress and impose a limit on your potential. Garbage.

If you just want to explore trails and get home safely and not beaten up, then moco is totally up to the task. Just slow down a bit when it gets choppy, and don't put yourself in harm's way.

avalanche > push, in my experience. Both in CS and in suspension function.

 

[Radical337]

Generally, lower end dampers cannot deal with increases in shaft speed well, so as you start taking faster (sharp edged) hits at speed, they become overwhelmed and spike or are harsh. Less aggressive riders may never really experience this, but when they try to ride harder, the equipment may not be able to keep up. The simpler way to say it is that above a certain speed, it will get worse and worse as it encounters bigger and bigger impacts.

This is more along the lines of what I was looking for...an objective view. Thanks.

 

[Radical337]

I'm easily an 'expert level rider,' and sometimes the worst rider in the group. Expert rider sounds impressive until you are one; then you're just some schlub with a hobby. Expert riders are completely unremarkable.

If you're getting a thrill out of cleaning that technical bit of trail, seeking out new challenging/interesting/faster lines, going fast, maybe getting a bit airborne... a fork that behaves inconsistently will hamper your progress and impose a limit on your potential. Garbage.

If you just want to explore trails and get home safely and not beaten up, then moco is totally up to the task. Just slow down a bit when it gets choppy, and don't put yourself in harm's way.

avalanche > push, in my experience. Both in CS and in suspension function.

Wow, great objective info. I wish I was an expert level rider and the worst in the group lol. It would be pretty sweet to be... an unremarkable schlub as you say

Your expert rider status is matched only by your ability to be humble about it.

But in all seriousness and sarcasm notwithstanding, I totally see your point. I guess it would come down to at what point would it become obvious to a less aggressive rider trying to become a more aggressive rider that the limitations of the front suspension become ...garbage. And aside from the price tag, I do want to spend a season on a properly functioning MoCo fork to see and feel for myself where that point in ability level really starts to highlight the limits of the moco design.

 

[One Pivot]

If your hands ever get sore from a rough trail, that's Moco beating you up.

I disagree entirely about better riders needing better forks. If you're out there every weekend, you'd benefit from a nice fork. If you ride once a year to the store and back, it wouldn't matter.

 

[Radical337]

If your hands ever get sore from a rough trail, that's Moco beating you up.

They absolutely do and quite frequently as a matter of fact. Just because I am no expert level rider doesn't mean I can't shred to some degree. I can. And I certainly notice the hand fatigue. I have always thought this was from other factors....this is great info.

 

[Ze_Zaskar]

Moco is quite harsh at speed in the chunk, it spikes a lot.
Used to have an Yari RC on my old bike, it was bad enough to cause blurred vision when charging. Got a RCT3 damper upgrade, problem solved

 

[Radical337]

Moco is quite harsh at speed in the chunk, it spikes a lot.
Used to have an Yari RC on my old bike, it was bad enough to cause blurred vision when charging. Got a RCT3 damper upgrade, problem solved

I am starting to see a common denominator: speed combined with repeated harsh, square edge hits with moco and one will quickly see the limitations of the design. A decent rider can start to get there very quick. It has little, if anything at all, to do with jumps and drops. A rider will experience this on technical stuff and rock garden descents and experience it sooner rather than later if you're riding even just 2-3 x's a week. I now see why One Pivot makes the comment about anything more than a trip to the store...and you will appreciate the benefit of an upgrade. Appreciate the feedback.

 

[clintj]

I didn't realize how much difference there could be until I upgraded to the Charger. Before, I would have to slow down quite a bit for chunky sections to avoid getting hammered or the front tire skipping off of things. Hand fatigue on braking bumps was bad, too, and accidentally nailing a big rock head on was almost enough to knock the grips out of my hands. The MoCo chokes up when you really need it to absorb a high energy, high speed hit.

Now the fork is perfectly capable of riding "no brakes" through some pretty serious terrain, like one local trail with rocks in various head sizes, from baby to adult and larger. All I had to do was keep my body low and eyes up to choose my line, and let the bike run. I've NEVER ridden that trail so fast and felt so comfortable doing it.

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[Darth Pinche]

While I'm not that aggressive of a rider, I noticed a big improvement in my Yari with MC when I had the Debonair air shaft installed and my mechanic changed the oil to Maxis 3wt vs RS 5wt. It no longer spikes hard when hitting roots and I found the fork to be way more capable now. I can take things at much faster speeds and the fork just soaks things up where before it was like riding a jackhammer. It is a relatively cheap upgrade and worth trying at your next service before going to the Charger. I wanted to do that but it was just too much $ at this time.

 

[One Pivot]

You can run Moco wide open and reduce a lot of high speed spiking. Couple that with thinner oil and it'll flow enough to get moving pretty fast without spiking... But it accomplishes this by basically eliminating any LSC you had or could have. Brake dive is apparent and control is decreased.

You can make tradeoffs with moco. You can't have a fork that is supportive and doesn't spike, with moco it's one or the other.

With light oil and, the debonair spring, try cranking up the compression to half or so, and all those negative traits come back.

With something like a avalanche damper, you can add significant LSC and it still won't spike. It's sort of mind blowing when you feel it and realize just how severe the compromise was before.

 

[Ze_Zaskar]

Honestly, a damper upgrade is not crazy expensive and you'll get an amazing fork. I got my RCT3 Charger 2 damper for 140$, ending up with effectively with a Lyric.

 

[Sidewalk]

I went from a Yari/Monarch budget '17 Specialized Enduro to a Ohlins coil '18 Specialized Enduro (virtually the same bike).

Is the Ohlins better? Oh hell yes. Is the Yari bad? No, no it is not. I would say it is amazing, in my opinion. The bullshit it put up with me on board (bare in mind I am light, but aggressive) was impressive. Huge hits, long descents, bottoming out (yes, all properly setup), lots of chunk, still fine. So good, I am keeping it as a backup for when my coil is in the shop for service. I might upgrade it, but not for now. I kept my old Enduro for spare parts (I'm hard on my bikes) :lol:

 

[jbadger1977]

While I'm not that aggressive of a rider, I noticed a big improvement in my Yari with MC when I had the Debonair air shaft installed and my mechanic changed the oil to Maxis 3wt vs RS 5wt. It no longer spikes hard when hitting roots and I found the fork to be way more capable now. I can take things at much faster speeds and the fork just soaks things up where before it was like riding a jackhammer. It is a relatively cheap upgrade and worth trying at your next service before going to the Charger. I wanted to do that but it was just too much $ at this time.

This. For those who are not racing competitively, the Debonair (2019 version) upgrade, plus properly lubed seals and foam rings, makes the Yari fine on all but the roughest terrain at speed. I just got out and really had a chance to test the new Debonair air spring (170mm on a 155mm 29er bike) with the Push Ultra-low friction seals and I was really impressed. So much more control at speed on chunky stuff compared to the Solo Air. Small bump sensitivity was much better at slower speeds as well. Blew away some of my previous PRs on pretty much every descent on my go-to trails. For the money, it's the best place to start. However, like One Pivot stated, you do pretty much have to run it wide open if you're planning on getting rowdy with the MoCo damper. Will be getting a Charger 2.1 eventually, but will prob just wait until I need to do a full tear down on the fork.

 

[Radical337]

While I'm not that aggressive of a rider, I noticed a big improvement in my Yari with MC when I had the Debonair air shaft installed and my mechanic changed the oil to Maxis 3wt vs RS 5wt. It no longer spikes hard when hitting roots and I found the fork to be way more capable now. I can take things at much faster speeds and the fork just soaks things up where before it was like riding a jackhammer. It is a relatively cheap upgrade and worth trying at your next service before going to the Charger. I wanted to do that but it was just too much $ at this time.

Well for the record, the 2019 Revelation fork has the Debonair air spring from the factory or at least mine came that way. The fork is back at SRAM here stateside. When I get it back, it will have been gone through by a factory trained SRAM tech and not an assembly line factory worker in Taiwan who prob knows less than me and is cranking out mass produced forks. I will be very interested in seeing the diff in performance.