I haven't on my Prophet... But I usually rely on the front brake much more than the rear unless I'm on ice or sand...
Rear Suspension less effective under breaking?
I've read that the Giant Meastro (like the Anthem or Trance) suspension is better than a single-pivot swingarm (like the Rush I'm looking to buy) because it won't compress under braking nearly as much.
The GT IDXC 3.0 I currently ride definitely has that problem. I notice the rear suspension feels alot stiffer and choppier under braking than it does otherwise. This is really jarring and causes me to lose confidence in steep downhill switchbacks.
Does anyone notice diminished rear suspension performance on thier Rush or Phophet under braking?
The GT IDXC 3.0 I currently ride definitely has that problem. I notice the rear suspension feels alot stiffer and choppier under braking than it does otherwise. This is really jarring and causes me to lose confidence in steep downhill switchbacks.
Does anyone notice diminished rear suspension performance on thier Rush or Phophet under braking?
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Rear suspension will always feel less effective as your weight will always be shifted to the front of the bike when you are braking. Even when leaning back your weight is being pushed to the front fork and is being taken off of the rear shock. It is a simple matter of physics and not a matter of some complex gimmicky suspension design.
I respectfully disagree. There are actual physics principles at work here, and any engineer will confirm that multiple pivot designs of rear suspension do have advantages under heavy braking conditions. However much it affects your riding is probably very subjective, and it would make sense to try and test ride as many rear suspension bikes as possible before committing money to a particular bike.
It's not a question of number of pivots really. There are great multi pivot/bar/linkage designs as there are crappy ones. Just like there are great single pivot bikes and crappy ones. More doesn't mean better...midphase said:I respectfully disagree. There are actual physics principles at work here, and any engineer will confirm that multiple pivot designs of rear suspension do have advantages under heavy braking conditions. However much it affects your riding is probably very subjective, and it would make sense to try and test ride as many rear suspension bikes as possible before committing money to a particular bike.
Right, but to say it is better, and to say it is noticeably better are two different things. The shops in Atlanta don't have an Anthem 3 or a Rush 600 that they are willing to let me test ride on a trail. I'm can't even find a large Anthem 3 to test ride because people keep buying them before they are even assembled.bad ronald said:Rear suspension will always feel less effective as your weight will always be shifted to the front of the bike when you are braking. Even when leaning back your weight is being pushed to the front fork and is being taken off of the rear shock. It is a simple matter of physics and not a matter of some complex gimmicky suspension design.
Buying technology won't make you a better rider. Most single pivot DH bikes and even multi-pivot bikes have floating discs to resolve the stiffer rear end. This is to improve braking for DH racing not making it comfortable.willevans said:The GT IDXC 3.0 I currently ride definitely has that problem. I notice the rear suspension feels alot stiffer and choppier under braking than it does otherwise. This is really jarring and causes me to lose confidence in steep downhill switchbacks.
I actually do the opposite when I have problems in a new section. I bring out my hardtail. Once I clear it with my hardtail I have a lot of confidence with my Gemini.
All my full suspension bikes have been single-pivots. I like single pivots because of minimal maintenance. Most single-pivot bikes have massive mud clearance. My buddy has a Intense VPP 5.5. He had mud clearance issues on a really muddy ride. Then to add insult to injury he had to shell $75 to buy new bushings because the mud had ruin them.
Agreed. I like to setup my brakes so that the front brakes engages faster than the rear. This minimizes my rear from locking up too early from no weight on it.bad ronald said:Rear suspension will always feel less effective as your weight will always be shifted to the front of the bike when you are braking. Even when leaning back your weight is being pushed to the front fork and is being taken off of the rear shock. It is a simple matter of physics and not a matter of some complex gimmicky suspension design.
Of, first of all, I'm not very ingenieral minded, but anyway, here is what I think.willevans said:I've read that the Giant Meastro (like the Anthem or Trance) suspension is better than a single-pivot swingarm (like the Rush I'm looking to buy) because it won't compress under braking nearly as much.
The GT IDXC 3.0 I currently ride definitely has that problem. I notice the rear suspension feels alot stiffer and choppier under braking than it does otherwise. This is really jarring and causes me to lose confidence in steep downhill switchbacks.
Does anyone notice diminished rear suspension performance on thier Rush or Phophet under braking?
I think that all bikes present somewhat that problem. As far as I know, break stiffening the rear suspension is one of the 'downsides' of a single pivot. A horst-link bike would have the rear suspension more active during braking, but it's not 100% independant. That's why some DH bikes use a floating brake.
Anyway, I really don't think it's a very noticeable thing, and the bikes are great. Can you test ride one of the bikes to see how it behaves?
I've test rode a medium Anthem3 (too small, but no large available to ride) and a large Rush600 and right now I'm leaning towards the Rush because the front suspension felt so much better than the R7 Comp on the Anthem. The only problem is that I'm going to need to buy a new tray to hold the Rush, which will add 100 bucks to the price.rzozaya1969 said:Of, first of all, I'm not very ingenieral minded, but anyway, here is what I think.
I think that all bikes present somewhat that problem. As far as I know, break stiffening the rear suspension is one of the 'downsides' of a single pivot. A horst-link bike would have the rear suspension more active during braking, but it's not 100% independant. That's why some DH bikes use a floating brake.
Anyway, I really don't think it's a very noticeable thing, and the bikes are great. Can you test ride one of the bikes to see how it behaves?
The Anthem3 didn't have any pedal bob at all! I tried all gear combinations and sprinted around a fairly sizeable parking lot and it never bobbed, but the front fork was loud and notchy going over curbs and such.
Get a new tray for 100, sell your old for 75... not too bad and you'll be happy you did. Nothing compares to a Lefty.willevans said:I've test rode a medium Anthem3 (too small, but no large available to ride) and a large Rush600 and right now I'm leaning towards the Rush because the front suspension felt so much better than the R7 Comp on the Anthem. The only problem is that I'm going to need to buy a new tray to hold the Rush, which will add 100 bucks to the price.
The Anthem3 didn't have any pedal bob at all! I tried all gear combinations and sprinted around a fairly sizeable parking lot and it never bobbed, but the front fork was loud and notchy going over curbs and such.
Yes, the Giant Meastro suspension is more responsive under breaking compaired to the Prophet/Rush, especially on braking bumps, rocks, roots, etc.. BUT, that is the only advantage I felt when riding it.. Overall, I feel like my Prophet is an all around better bike than the Reign I rode.. The front fork on the Reign was nowhere close to the Lefty..
Brake Jack isn't going to make a bit of differance unless you are racing or riding moslty full on DH.
Tom
Tom
Even some DH racers with frames with a floating brake take it off as they feel they benefit more from lighter weight than the floating brake...
brake jack??
I also ride a mono pivot XC bike. A lot of what the bike companies go on about is just so much marketing nonsense.
Try this experiment. Remove the rear shock from your bike and allow the suspension to compress. Its just much easier if the shock isnt there. With the rear brake off you will probably experience a smooth up and down movement and the rear wheel will probably move backwards a small amount. Now apply the rear brake and compress the suspension. It will feel stiffer and you will see the wheel skid accross the ground. Until it does skid, the suspension will try and resist compressing. In practise this is hardly a huge problem as teh movement required is very slight and has to do with the axle path. Fancy linkages can't isolate the rear suspension from braking forces, all they do is alter the axle path to be more verticle than is possible on a mono-pivot, thus reducing the effect referred to above. In practise, this "brake jack" will vary from design to design but is not as significant as it sounds because the rear wheel can usually move to compensate quite easily as the ground we ride on is mostly loose! This is how I understand the problem based on this article: http://www.mtbcomprador.com/content/category/3/67/105/
I also ride a mono pivot XC bike. A lot of what the bike companies go on about is just so much marketing nonsense.
Try this experiment. Remove the rear shock from your bike and allow the suspension to compress. Its just much easier if the shock isnt there. With the rear brake off you will probably experience a smooth up and down movement and the rear wheel will probably move backwards a small amount. Now apply the rear brake and compress the suspension. It will feel stiffer and you will see the wheel skid accross the ground. Until it does skid, the suspension will try and resist compressing. In practise this is hardly a huge problem as teh movement required is very slight and has to do with the axle path. Fancy linkages can't isolate the rear suspension from braking forces, all they do is alter the axle path to be more verticle than is possible on a mono-pivot, thus reducing the effect referred to above. In practise, this "brake jack" will vary from design to design but is not as significant as it sounds because the rear wheel can usually move to compensate quite easily as the ground we ride on is mostly loose! This is how I understand the problem based on this article: http://www.mtbcomprador.com/content/category/3/67/105/
Actually that would depend what that engineer is paid to say...midphase said:I respectfully disagree. There are actual physics principles at work here, and any engineer will confirm that multiple pivot designs of rear suspension do have advantages under heavy braking conditions. However much it affects your riding is probably very subjective, and it would make sense to try and test ride as many rear suspension bikes as possible before committing money to a particular bike.
When designing suspensions there is lot at play and typically the scenario's used in the marketing brochure is only one of several that a suspension will undergo during the range of it's movement with a given rider on a given day on a given trail.
As an Engineer, it's all really BS and the best way to select the best suspension for you is too ride the bikes and choose. Leave the brochure in the bin at the door on your way out
If brake jack of single pivot bikes was that bad, I don't think we would see Minaar, Hannah and many other top riders on single pivot bikes. Sure the Judge of Mick Hannah has a floating brake but Minaar has been pretty much the guy most consistently at the top of podiums in the last years and has done so on a basic single pivot bike, no floating brake... Steve Peat also won many races on a single pivot Orange frame...
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That was a great link!!!!
It helped me to answer all the questions I had about suspension and setup. Thanks again!headshot said:I also ride a mono pivot XC bike. A lot of what the bike companies go on about is just so much marketing nonsense.
Try this experiment. Remove the rear shock from your bike and allow the suspension to compress. Its just much easier if the shock isnt there. With the rear brake off you will probably experience a smooth up and down movement and the rear wheel will probably move backwards a small amount. Now apply the rear brake and compress the suspension. It will feel stiffer and you will see the wheel skid accross the ground. Until it does skid, the suspension will try and resist compressing. In practise this is hardly a huge problem as teh movement required is very slight and has to do with the axle path. Fancy linkages can't isolate the rear suspension from braking forces, all they do is alter the axle path to be more verticle than is possible on a mono-pivot, thus reducing the effect referred to above. In practise, this "brake jack" will vary from design to design but is not as significant as it sounds because the rear wheel can usually move to compensate quite easily as the ground we ride on is mostly loose! This is how I understand the problem based on this article: http://www.mtbcomprador.com/content/category/3/67/105/
I don't really think that all the suspension is BS, but I do think that bike builders greatly overmarket the suspension design. I think that for most riders they should put attention on the suspension to 'feel' the differences in suspension design. When I had a Jekyll, I had to put attention to the peddal stroke to 'feel' a slight kickback when I passed a rut or rock. If I just decided to ride, I wouldn't notice it.Brad said:Actually that would depend what that engineer is paid to say...
When designing suspensions there is lot at play and typically the scenario's used in the marketing brochure is only one of several that a suspension will undergo during the range of it's movement with a given rider on a given day on a given trail.
As an Engineer, it's all really BS and the best way to select the best suspension for you is too ride the bikes and choose. Leave the brochure in the bin at the door on your way out
When comparing two bikes with different suspension designs, I think that the difference a rider notices is the overal bike (geometry, component, suspension setup, etc.) rather than effects in suspension design.
I don't see that many people that are searching for a car to buy looks at which suspension X or Y car has to reach a decision. They look at several factors before deciding on a specific car. I think that's what we should do on a bike. Look at the Turner forum a while ago, when they went from a Horst Link to TNT (single pivot with rockers or something like that).
I also liked headshot post, his experiment was logical and his link was good.
Here is an interesting fact. "The Maestro suspension design has an interesting history. It came close to not happening at all. Well into the Maestro design, testing and preproduction phase, Giant learned they were in violation of an existing suspension patent, the Virtual Pivot Point (VPP) owned by Santa Cruz bicycles. Giant had to hit the reset on their CAD. At the 11th hour, Giant went back to the drawing board and reconfigured the linkage so as not to break the existing patent."
http://www.suspensionmadeharmonious.com/reviews/mba_june.pdf
I agree with midphase and others to test ride as many suspension bikes as possible before committing money. Good thread.
Here is an interesting fact. "The Maestro suspension design has an interesting history. It came close to not happening at all. Well into the Maestro design, testing and preproduction phase, Giant learned they were in violation of an existing suspension patent, the Virtual Pivot Point (VPP) owned by Santa Cruz bicycles. Giant had to hit the reset on their CAD. At the 11th hour, Giant went back to the drawing board and reconfigured the linkage so as not to break the existing patent."
http://www.suspensionmadeharmonious.com/reviews/mba_june.pdf
I agree with midphase and others to test ride as many suspension bikes as possible before committing money. Good thread.
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