[Kitty13]

Hello All -


It's been over 10 yrs since I've posted, and I know my questions are likely obtuse, dumb, and probably irrelevant. Nevertheless:

Question #1: What do you think about the DELTA suspension on Evil bikes?

Compared to other DW-Links, perhaps? I know the DELTA is not quite "DW-Link" because it is a single pivot suspension. I really like the DW-Link on my Turner Sultan; I think the DW Sultan is orders of magnitude better than the TNT Sultan I had.

I have owned the following bicycles:
a) Santa Cruz Nomad (2007 version)
b) Intense 5.5 (2008)
c) Turner Sultan (2008)
d) Turtner Sultan (2014 v. 2.2)

I still own the Nomad and Sultan v. 2.2. My favorite bike ever is probably the Nomad. I never jump or go at a speed that might be too difficult to control. I can't afford to get hurt, and I don't race. I don't do "downhill runs." All the same, I like the cushiness of the Nomad even on merely swoopy trails. I think the Sultan is about as "cross country" a bike as I'd like.


Question #2:
Given the bikes I own, what do you think might be a good (relatively long travel) addition? I'm thinking about the following:
i) Pivot Firebird 29
ii) Pivot Firebird 27.5
iii) Evil Wreckoning (160mm travel 29er)
iv) Evil Offering (140mm travel 29er)
v) Ibis RipMo (145mm travel 29er)
vi) Yeti SB150 (150mm travel 29er)

I don't have a Turner on my list because I'd like to try something different, just for variety.

I know the best thing is to demo all the bicycles, but I doubt my current circumstances will let me do so. I seem to be enamored by the Evil Offering &/or Wreckoning, even though I've never tried either one. Thank you.

Kitty13

 

[Kitty13]

I guess my message is that bad, eh? So many views and no replies.

From my Rip Van Winkle point of view, it seems the forums have become more civil, with more supportive replies and fewer ad hominem attacks. I enjoy the Turner forum because it almost always been cordial.

It seems the Push 11.6 is universally adored, and I think a bit part of its performance is because it is custom tuned to each rider. Is there anything else about it that is so revolutionary that neither RockShox nor Fox have been able to figure out over decades of experience? I have no ax to grind, nor am I beating up on Push. I am just curious. Thank you.

Kitty13

 

[Organ]

I went from an RFX to an Offering this year, and before that I rode a horst-link 5-spot for years.

I feel like on its own, the DW-Link is slightly more efficient climbing between the RFX and the Offering. I use a "climb switch" on both, which narrows the difference even more. Both I feel like they climb better than any HL bike I've owned.

IMO, the 1X drivetrain eliminated some of the drawbacks of a single pivot. You don't have to worry about vastly different relationships between the instant center and the chain force when you don't have 22T and 44T to deal with. Single pivots will have more anti-rise (brake squat) than just about any other design but whether that is good or bad is up for debate. I like a bit of squat.

I feel like the DELTA system is optimized for leverage curves better than the other design. Supple at the start, good support, and ramp up at the end. After all, you can adjust leverage curves without affecting anti-rise/squat with single pivots. I saw an interview where it as stated that the DELTA system was originally Daves way of testing various leverage curves easily.

Anyway, feels like bikes have evolved to a point where its hard to get a bad bike. Geometry and fit are more important to me. I really like my offering but I waited until Evil put out a bike with a steeper seat-tube. I have long legs and sitting over the rear tire just didn't work for me.

Edit: Regarding push, I think you are right. A custom tuned avalanche shock is probably just as good. Push just choose to make a trail oriented shock with 2 independent circuits and test them on bespoke frames. Fox/RS/etc have to make a product that works with thousands of frames and everyone from 100lb to 400lb....and keep a price point under $1k!!!

2nd edit: Just listened to the Vital podcast with Darren Murphy (founder of Push). He really sums it up with his "sum of all parts" stance. Its not the linkage, or the shock, or any other single thing...its the total package that makes a bike good.

 

[Kitty13]

Thank you so much for your considered reply, Organ. Very helpful to me.

Kitty13

 

[plummet]

Why not get a newer nomad if that's your favourite bike of all time?...

My personal thoughts on the suspension designs. Evil bikes. Too many fiddly little linkage. Dw not active enough.
My favourite is Vpp strong and supple, 4 bar active and good pedal efficiency.

 

[Organ]

Why not get a newer nomad if that's your favourite bike of all time?...

My personal thoughts on the suspension designs. Evil bikes. Too many fiddly little linkage. Dw not active enough.
My favourite is Vpp strong and supple, 4 bar active and good pedal efficiency.

Dude, everyone knows ICT is the best suspension.

 

[Kitty13]

Funny. I remember all the (well-deserved) Tony Ellsworth bashing threads of old.

Thank you, Plummet - I'm passing on the new Nomad because they've made it much more of a downhill bike than it used to be. The VPP on mine has quite a bit of pedal bob. I can see the suspension moving up and down no matter how smoothly I pedal. The DW Sultan, on the other hand has almost no pedal bob. I suppose the new VPP is a lot better, but I'd like to try something different.

By the way, my old Nomad has the "hump" top tube they started with. I was disappointed to see they did away with it in the subsequent years.

 

[Kitty13]

I have read so many threads about how air suspensions are just as good as coil suspensions...that if the air suspension is not working as well it just needs tuning. I've read and tried a lot of things. Sadly no air shock/fork seems to work as well as the Fox Vanilla fork and Fox DHX coil shock I have on the Nomad. Yes, this is just another random observation in my monologue.

I know Jayem is a big fan of custom tuning, so maybe that's the Magic Meow I'm looking for.

 

[Jayem]

It seems the Push 11.6 is universally adored, and I think a bit part of its performance is because it is custom tuned to each rider. Is there anything else about it that is so revolutionary that neither RockShox nor Fox have been able to figure out over decades of experience? I have no ax to grind, nor am I beating up on Push. I am just curious. Thank you.

Kitty13

Avalanche can make you something that works really well for about 1/2 the price. The big benefit of the 11-6 is the secondary compression circuit. This could be a good feature, or it could be something you rarely use. The custom tuned shocks are able to be set up so you can "have your cake and eat it too", in that they are firm at low speed, don't dive, but blow off like butter for high speed hits. You can ram your bike into rocks and root-balls and it doesn't flinch, the faster you go, the smoother it feels.

Compared to OEM stuff, it's a huge difference IME. OEM stuff is usually tuned to prevent heavy riders from blowing them out, which means a restrictive high-speed circuit, so you effectively can't run low-speed-compression damping, if your shock even has that feature, because when you do, you end up with both circuits restricted and it's harsh/spike-city. When you have an effective shock, you can closed down the LSC to make it firm and it's not harsh, but Fox and RS have to make tunes that work mediocre for riders from 120-250lbs. IME, it's a huge compromise and no, Fox and RS often don't know what the **** they are doing. Watch some of the Vorpsrung suspension series for more info. A good example was that on everything except the light-rebound tune, the stock Monarch+ shock rebound functioned as an orifice valve, meaning you had to run it open with lots of wobbly uncontrolled rebound, because it would not blow off to the high speed circuit, even in the most extreme conditions. This is completely opposite of how RS described it: "rapid recovery", making it sound like there was a functional high speed circuit.

Tuners like Push and Avalanche and a couple more know what they are doing and the improvement is huge compared to the OEM stuff. The technology has existed for years and years, but Fox and RS are more about packaging for OEM sales and damping tech takes a backseat. Light weight and spinny knobs are what sell bikes. People in parking lots want to be able to feel "climb" and "trail" settings, even though the "descend" setting gives you terrible chassis control to trade-off for the better bump absorption and the "trail" setting bucks your a$$ with every impact uphill, while the "climb" setting is useless for anything but pavement. This is what we are programmed to accept and what sells bikes unfortunately.

So the Push and Avy-tuned shocks are really that much better IME. I've had Avy-branded shocks and shocks tuned by Avy, Avy cartridge forks and forks tuned by Push. The cheap way to go about this is get a donor-chassis that Avy can tune, like a small-shaft Fox RC4, VanR, the new "Marzocchi" brand has some chassis that Craig recommends for tuning as well-send this in to Avy and get it tuned. You get about 95% of the performance of buying the total-custom shock usually. Again, Push adds a secondary compression circuit which can be tuned independently, but I find myself pretty content with a good custom tune, occasionally tweaking settings slightly for conditions.

 

[Kitty13]

Thank you, Jayem! I had tried to glean your thoughts from several of your postings, but this brings them all together in one place. I will try a PUSH coil conversion kit on my air fork and try an Avy tuning on the air shock. Again, much appreciated.

 

[Jayem]

Thank you, Jayem! I had tried to glean your thoughts from several of your postings, but this brings them all together in one place. I will try a PUSH coil conversion kits on my air fork and try an Avy tuning on the air shock. Again, much appreciated.

This thread just popped up:

https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-susp...ormative-rear-shock-1112121.html#post14264515

 

[SHAHEEB]

Randoms from your list... looks like you want a 29r? The offering is more like the sb130 yeti than sb150. These look like the 3 best on your list. I've ridden them all and may own one or two. my take is they all work very well. figure out what you really want as its strawberry vanilla and chocolate here...

iv) Offering (140mm travel 29er) Dial in the sag and cockpit and enjoy the good times. Really looking forward to this bike as i just picked one up. it pedals almost as good as an sb130 on the trails where i ride. I believe this bike is more on the party end of the spectrum vs the yeti( business end, efficient, etc.--racy feeling) i dont really pick up on the part where reviewers say it needs a skilled pilot-referring to sb130. it seems forgiving enough. mines set up 136r dpx2 with an avalanched yari! i do like avalanche products. craigs very opinionated but the parts work.
v) Ibis RipMo (145mm travel 29er) excellent pedaler, pretty fun downhill, had a weird feeling descending some dry conditions the one day it was sampled. easy to get along with, looks pretty good in person. Would have prefered a lower front end which can be adjusted. light, very good all arounder! made in china? wtf $$$ haha
vi) Yeti SB150 (150mm travel 29er) brawler, wants to ramble, with an 11/6 and ribbon coil it flattens the trail. and then turns around and flies right back up. really cool ride, my friend thinks it turns to slow-but hes used to old school geo, it may be too much unless you like overbiking and safety or something along those lines.

just my nontech semi review for you to chew on, hope it helps

 

[Kitty13]

Definitely helpful, Shaheeb. Thank you. I'd looked at various YouTube videos of these bikes but seems like almost everybody in every video loves everything they review. You've sort of burst my bubble by not including the Wreckoning, but I'll try to move on

 

[rockman]

I have an 11-6 on both my RFX and the Offering. One thing I don't miss is the chain slap with the DW-link as compared to the Offering. Otherwise, completely different bikes but both very fun.

 

[Kitty13]

For better or worse I ended up picking up a Wreckoning on clearance last fall. And I am so happy I did. Such a fun bike. Every time I ride it I tell myself it should be illegal because it is so awesome.

I'm 6'00" on a good day and I got an extra large. The xl is a big bike, but I like them hefty.

If it pedals less efficiently, I don't seem to mind at all. Thank you all for your help.