Maybe you should blame the rims
Racing Ralph UST Ready Failure
I have just had a 2011 RaRa DD 2.1 blow off an Stan’s Alpine rim, previously I have had 2 of the 2010 RaRa DD tires blow off an Sun EQ rim and also a Stan’s Alpine. This is out of the six I have purchased over the past 10 months (4 2010 model & 2 2011).
They all occurred at 30psi and happened in about 48 hours of mounting the tires on the rims with Stan's rim tape and Stan's rim strips.
I was really expecting that the 2011 RaRa with the stronger bead would have fixed the issue in the previous models but it still looks to be an issue. I am being optimistic and hoping that this is a one off defect in the 2011 model as I really like the RaRa.
I have previously run RK 2.2 Protection but found the lack of grip on the side of the tyre pretty poor, but never had one blow of the rim, so I am now thinking of trying the 2.2 X-King Protection.
Has anyone got a direct comparison of the 2011 RaRa DD 2.1 and the X-King Protection 2.2?
The reviews of the Racesport version thus far seem pretty average making me hesitant to move towards the Conti X-Kings.
They all occurred at 30psi and happened in about 48 hours of mounting the tires on the rims with Stan's rim tape and Stan's rim strips.
I was really expecting that the 2011 RaRa with the stronger bead would have fixed the issue in the previous models but it still looks to be an issue. I am being optimistic and hoping that this is a one off defect in the 2011 model as I really like the RaRa.
I have previously run RK 2.2 Protection but found the lack of grip on the side of the tyre pretty poor, but never had one blow of the rim, so I am now thinking of trying the 2.2 X-King Protection.
Has anyone got a direct comparison of the 2011 RaRa DD 2.1 and the X-King Protection 2.2?
The reviews of the Racesport version thus far seem pretty average making me hesitant to move towards the Conti X-Kings.
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Maybe your pressure gauge is off?
I thought i read somewhere and i could be very wrong here that putting a ust bead on a non ust wheel and going tubless was a no no, that could be it.
UST bead on a Stans rim is ok.hitechredneck said:I thought i read somewhere and i could be very wrong here that putting a ust bead on a non ust wheel and going tubless was a no no, that could be it.
P
Stan's rims are not UST, and Schwalbe requires UST rims with their UST tires to be used sans tubes.
I have a 2011 Nobby Nic tubeless ready, and the instruction sheet makes it sound like maybe it will work with Non-UST rims, but it's probably still at least a Crap shoot.
With my UST Schwalbes, mounted on my UST rims tubeless, it works great. Hmmm.
I have a 2011 Nobby Nic tubeless ready, and the instruction sheet makes it sound like maybe it will work with Non-UST rims, but it's probably still at least a Crap shoot.
With my UST Schwalbes, mounted on my UST rims tubeless, it works great. Hmmm.
From No Tubes:
"Tire Recommendations: Any Tubeless Tire"
http://www.notubes.com/support_tire.php
From personal experience: Specialized Tubeless Ready (tubeless bead) unburped in a year - includes some moderate jumping with some bad landings.
P
"Tire Recommendations: Any Tubeless Tire"
http://www.notubes.com/support_tire.php
From personal experience: Specialized Tubeless Ready (tubeless bead) unburped in a year - includes some moderate jumping with some bad landings.
P
And then they make the disclaimer that failure of tires used outside their design intent is not their fault: http://www.notubes.com/support_warranty.phpMr.P said:From No Tubes:
"Tire Recommendations: Any Tubeless Tire"
http://www.notubes.com/support_tire.php
From personal experience: Specialized Tubeless Ready (tubeless bead) unburped in a year - includes some moderate jumping with some bad landings.
P
UST tires are not designed for use on Notubes rims.
I measured the UST tire bead height to be greater than the bead seat to hook height of the NT rim.
Ditto?Shark said:Maybe your pressure gauge is off?
Agreed! If you are using a UST tire with any rim that is not UST certified it is a crap shoot plain and simple. And Stans "Bead Socket technology" simply isn't UST. Stans rims are primarily designed to work with standard tires, thus the lower seat to hook height. Even "tubeless ready" tires can be problematic with Stans rims if the tire uses true UST spec bead dimensions. That's the reason for the disclaimer that Shiggy links to. Unless you are running a full UST set up, there's no guarantee that the tire you want to use tubeless will work with your wheels. And unless by some miracle all the tire and rim manufacturers get on the same sheet of music, like that's gonna happen, I doubt there ever will be any guarantees! All you can do is keep trying.shiggy said:And then they make the disclaimer that failure of tires used outside their design intent is not their fault: http://www.notubes.com/support_warranty.php
UST tires are not designed for use on Notubes rims.
I measured the UST tire bead height to be greater than the bead seat to hook height of the NT rim.
Good Dirt
And many (though not all) Tubeless Ready tires use a UST spec bead.Squash said:Agreed! If you are using a UST tire with any rim that is not UST certified it is a crap shoot plain and simple. And Stans "Bead Socket technology" simply isn't UST. Stans rims are primarily designed to work with standard tires, thus the lower seat to hook height. Even "tubeless ready" tires can be problematic with Stans rims if the tire uses true UST spec bead dimensions. That's the reason for the disclaimer that Shiggy links to. Unless you are running a full UST set up, there's no guarantee that the tire you want to use tubeless will work with your wheels. And unless by some miracle all the tire and rim manufacturers get on the same sheet of music, like that's gonna happen, I doubt there ever will be any guarantees! All you can do is keep trying.
Good Dirt
For some reason "muffin top" came to mind after I measured the bead depths.
is "though not all" specifically for stan's or is there another TR variant that does not use the standard spec? just curiosity.shiggy said:And many (though not all) Tubeless Ready tires use a UST spec bead.
i think tying it to "UST" can be misleading, because, as shiggy pointed out, people are using the specification (ETRTO) without licensing the trademark (UST). so, using a UST tire on your Bontrager TLR rims is not a crap shoot, even though you won't find "UST" on Bonty's stuff.Squash said:Agreed! If you are using a UST tire with any rim that is not UST certified it is a crap shoot plain and simple. And Stans "Bead Socket technology" simply isn't UST. Stans rims are primarily designed to work with standard tires, thus the lower seat to hook height. Even "tubeless ready" tires can be problematic with Stans rims if the tire uses true UST spec bead dimensions. That's the reason for the disclaimer that Shiggy links to. Unless you are running a full UST set up, there's no guarantee that the tire you want to use tubeless will work with your wheels. And unless by some miracle all the tire and rim manufacturers get on the same sheet of music, like that's gonna happen, I doubt there ever will be any guarantees! All you can do is keep trying.
Good Dirt
There are some companies that seem to just be using a modified standard bead shape for their "tubeless ready" tires. The Kenda "Sealant Compatible" models simply have a smooth rather than textured outer bead surface compared to the standard tire.meltingfeather said:is "though not all" specifically for stan's or is there another TR variant that does not use the standard spec? just curiosity.
Correct. Bonty calls their TLR tires and rims "UST compatible" when I asked.meltingfeather said:i think tying it to "UST" can be misleading, because, as shiggy pointed out, people are using the specification (ETRTO) without licensing the trademark (UST). so, using a UST tire on your Bontrager TLR rims is not a crap shoot, even though you won't find "UST" on Bonty's stuff.
From what I have been able to gather, though Mavic does hold the patents on the UST spec, they let anyone use it without charge. They do charge to use the UST label which requires the tire/rim to be tested and certified.
Yes OP does create a platform to yet again extol the UST compatibility issues.It still doesn't explain the extremely high failure rate OP'er is having. IMO a tire blowing off a rim in static situation will do so with a tube as well. And all those tires and rims can't surely be at the bottom or top of their mfg tolerance? Is the way the rim strip is fitted stopping the bead from fitting in the bead seat? are the tires being forced on with tire levers and not just fingers.
There's got to be a logical reason besides UST compatibility because there is literally millions that don't have problems.
There's got to be a logical reason besides UST compatibility because there is literally millions that don't have problems.
Considering the constants in the OP's troubles are the rim and not using tubes, I would blame the rim and the lack of tubesgvs_nz said:Yes OP does create a platform to yet again extol the UST compatibility issues.It still doesn't explain the extremely high failure rate OP'er is having. IMO a tire blowing off a rim in static situation will do so with a tube as well. And all those tires and rims can't surely be at the bottom or top of their mfg tolerance? Is the way the rim strip is fitted stopping the bead from fitting in the bead seat? are the tires being forced on with tire levers and not just fingers.
There's got to be a logical reason besides UST compatibility because there is literally millions that don't have problems.
as far as i can tell, mavic has patents on a couple of aspects of their own UST design (FORE drilling, for example) but the specification for the bead shape is not under their control any more than ISO tire/rim specifications. that's my understanding at least. that was the point of them getting it published as a "standard" specification with the ETRTO. i have a copy of mavic's original tubeless patent application. if you're interested, shoot me a PM.shiggy said:Correct. Bonty calls their TLR tires and rims "UST compatible" when I asked.
From what I have been able to gather, though Mavic does hold the patents on the UST spec, they let anyone use it without charge. They do charge to use the UST label which requires the tire/rim to be tested and certified.
Bonty peeps have told be the same thing in regards to compatibility, btw, adding that you do not need sealant to run UST tires on TLR rims (with strips, obviously).
Yes, tube could help roll and manipulate the bead in to the socket[ air pressure the same for both]. But I would also expect tube to help under riding conditions more than static situation.shiggy said:Considering the constants in the OP's troubles are the rim and not using tubes, I would blame the rim and the lack of tubes
The only constant is the OPer.
They have had problems with at least 3 rims and six tires over 10 months. Just a little more than the average!!
I would try without rim strips for a start if the tire bead hasn't been ruined by blowing off or excessive force from tire levers. Rim strips in themselves could cause problems as it makes it more difficult to get the bead over the rim edge.
I was under the impression that any tire that called itself "tubeless ready" or "compatible" had a UST spec bead. (I now see that may not be true) I also assume that to use the UST logo, the sidewalls had to be airtight. However, it seems that as long as a manufacturer isn't going to use the Mavic logo they can call the tire whatever they want. Is there a way to find out for sure if the bead only (not sidewall) meets the UST spec?
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