Mountain Bike Reviews Forum banner
1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, I've been riding an 05 Moment for awhile now and where I ride, its a gross overkill...

I would like to get back to riding a HT and a steel one at that... (my very first bike was a Voodoo Wanga... so I love that feeling of steel)

I will be using an 04 Marz Z1 FR (130mm) for this steel HT. Its an old Marz fork so the a to c distance is slightly more as well.

I have narrowed down to a few contenders... its really the usual suspects..

Ragley Blue Pig
Dialled Alpine OR Prince Albert
NS Surge
On One 456

Thing is I would like a steep SA of about 73 to 74 degrees preferably and a slightly slacker HA of about 68 to 69 degrees.

The other problem is that I like to ride very upright on the bike... My lower back wont stand for me to be bent too much and to compound the problem, I have short arms. I'm currently riding the S Moment which has an ETT of 22.5in and I'm using a 50mm stem and a mid rise bar in order to be comfortable.

I really like the Ragley, but it seems like the TT on the smallest frame, at 23.3 will still be way too long.

Think the Dialled PA is the same issue as well. I dont think either one would also give me that 2 angles that I would prefer. The ragley gives like 65 and 71 degress without sag... too slack for my liking as I like to stay seated while climbing.

Think the 456 ETT is still manageable but their website is a bit sketchy on the details of HA and SA or maybe its cos I cant really make sense of it.

Not much info on the Surge...

The Alpine really looks promising but I dont know if the figures on the website are sagged or unsagged measurements..

Need a bit of help here, especially owners of those bikes.... is the ETT on the ragley and the PA really that long?

My budget is about there for these couple of frames...

Is there any other steel frames that I have missed out that is able to give me what I'm looking for??

Many thanks... :thumbsup:
 

·
There's no app for this.
Joined
·
5,369 Posts
Curtlo?

custom 853 for around $700 if I recall correctly, and you can dial in your frame needs for the build. Just a thought, and there are other custom builders to check out. Jim
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Hi Tessaiga,
I have just order a blue pig frame and consulted bradt and ragley site.
it seems that the EFF on the blue pigs should be considered as longer since the seat tube angle is higher - the top tube already starts a bit more forward compared to other frames meaning - the reach on the blue pigs frame is longer then the EFF measurement alone suggests.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,842 Posts
The ragley gives like 65 and 71 degress without sag... too slack for my liking as I like to stay seated while climbing.
Presumably though, you'll be running the fork with some sag? So at sag, with a 140mm fork, you'll have a 73deg seat angle on the 16in frame. Slide the saddle forward 10mm, and you'll have a 74deg seat angle.

Seat angle on a mountainbike is a balancing act between keeping you far enough back so you can manual the thing over obstacles, and keeping you forward enough to pin the front end down on steep climbs. It's a bit of a balancing act.

We made our seat angles steeper on our larger frames to move riders forward more off the back wheel. Makes sense to me, and big lads who have ridden our frames too - they end up in a similar place, due to the taller seat position - that moves them back...

Also - you're wanting a steep seat angle and a short top tube. Well that's super-easy on mayn frames - simply fit an inline post and slide the saddle forward - sorted for both eventualities.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
412 Posts
Yes they are looong bikes...but keep ion mind you are meant to use a SHORT stem (50 or 70) with them. I ahve aOn One 456 and am fitting a 75mm 25 rise Hope stem to it with an old 125 Psylo fork. LOVE the One One. Takes the hits and loves the climbs!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for chiming in everyone... appreciate the replies... :thumbsup:

I will be running a 130mm fork with minimal sag, give or take 20% or likely less.

One thing I forgot to mention is that as it is right now on my Moment, I'm already using a zero setback seatpost with my seat pushed rather far forward. :madman: yes... I've got really short arms....

I'm 1.72m (5 ft 7 or 8in) with a 29, 30in inner leg.....

Throw in the short 50mm stem that I'm using now and the 22.5 ETT on my Moment, there is really much to work on for the smallest Blue Pig and the 456... is there??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,470 Posts
JimC. said:
custom 853 for around $700 if I recall correctly, and you can dial in your frame needs for the build. Just a thought, and there are other custom builders to check out. Jim
Good recommendation, I love mine. His prices are very reasonable (shipping is included) and he's able to pass on excellent pricing on forks and parts too. The wait is the only downer, 6-9 months seems typical. It was certainly worth the wait for me.

AM hardtails have gotten very popular- with good reason I think! People gloss over a lot of details on the boards here. Curtlo typically brazes his bikes (rather than tig welding)- which looks great and eliminates and chances or burning through a thin tube... this and a few gussets allow him to use thinner/lighter tubing without sacrificing strength. My frame came in at 5lbs, true temper platinum OX tubing, and I was very clear that it would see gaps and drops with a 160mm fork and 8" front rotor. I also specc'd sliding drop-outs so I can adjust the geometry or run SS without having to deal with horizontal drops or an EBB.

As for fit, maybe focus on reach/stack rather than just top tube length. Feeling in between stock sizes was one of the reasons I went custom rather than buying a production bike- 17/23" on mine.

 

·
Fo' Bidniz in da haus
Joined
·
17,282 Posts
FM said:
Good recommendation, I love mine. His prices are very reasonable (shipping is included) and he's able to pass on excellent pricing on forks and parts too. The wait is the only downer, 6-9 months seems typical. It was certainly worth the wait for me.

AM hardtails have gotten very popular- with good reason I think! People gloss over a lot of details on the boards here. Curtlo typically brazes his bikes (rather than tig welding)- which looks great and eliminates and chances or burning through a thin tube... this and a few gussets allow him to use thinner/lighter tubing without sacrificing strength. My frame came in at 5lbs, true temper platinum OX tubing, and I was very clear that it would see gaps and drops with a 160mm fork and 8" front rotor. I also specc'd sliding drop-outs so I can adjust the geometry or run SS without having to deal with horizontal drops or an EBB.

As for fit, maybe focus on reach/stack rather than just top tube length. Feeling in between stock sizes was one of the reasons I went custom rather than buying a production bike- 17/23" on mine.
custom AM hardtails are for poseurs...very nice bike though
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,842 Posts
FM said:
typically brazes his bikes (rather than tig welding)- which looks great and eliminates and chances or burning through a thin tube... this and a few gussets allow him to use thinner/lighter tubing without sacrificing strength.
The "brazing is stronger than TIG" isn't really true - TIG welding, particularly on tubes like OX Plat of 853 which are air hardening, gives a stronger lighter joint.

Your Curtlo is still very nice though :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
578 Posts
The Dialled numbers are sagged to answer one of the original questions. I have an Alpine and it's a great ride! The cockpit is compact so upright set-up should be possible. As others have said though, custom might be the best way to go for your requirements.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,470 Posts
brant said:
The "brazing is stronger than TIG" isn't really true - TIG welding, particularly on tubes like OX Plat of 853 which are air hardening, gives a stronger lighter joint.
Right, of course. Air-hardening aside, the story I always got when working for a builder was that Tig has better big-hit impact strength but brazed holds up better against constant smaller impacts/vibrations (i.e. great for road bikes).

Anyways, at some key joints I think Curtlo may have possibly welded my frame and then brazed over the welds. I say that because you can see weld-beeds and heat discoloration.. not positive though, what do you think Brant?

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Hi Brant, hope you are following this thread still...

I have just measured my current ride. Details are as follows. All unsagged measurements.

Marz 04' fork (130mm) with a2c of 518mm
Reach of 405mm
Stack of 555mm
From center of BB to height of the saddle rails is 580mm
ETT of 570mm
I run a short 50mm zero rise stem with mid riser bars

All measurements (except a2c measurement) is give and take of 5mm.... :D

What does this actually mean in terms of me riding a 16 inch Blue Pig with the same fork?

Stretched out or cramped or just nice? Am a bit concerned about the stack difference between my current ride and the stack on the 16 inch Blue Pig as posted on the Ragley website...... Does this have anything to do with the higher than BB on a unsagged FS so as to compensate for the sag once a rider gets on?

Any comments to shed some light on these figures will be very much appreciated.

Thanks so much...

Also.. how does your custom drawn cromoly tubing that you use compare with say Reynolds 853 in terms of durability, strength, compliance etc.??

Sorry for being a pain but I would really like to get a Blue Pig... just unsure about the fit... Thanks once again......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,842 Posts
Reach and stack is listed here - http://www.ragleybikes.com/geometry/

16in Blue Pig has reach = 390mm, stack = 576mm (140mm fork)

So that's shorter and higher than your current bike. Stack will drop in line with the difference in fork travel - perhaps down to 556mm. Reach won't alter much, but probably increase 2-3mm. So it's close, a touch shorter "stood" length.

Our current tubing is a 4130 double butted, so compared to a high end tubeset like 853, ours would be around a pound heavier I'd imagine. But that comes with a signficantly lower cost.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,598 Posts
FM said:
Right, of course. Air-hardening aside, the story I always got when working for a builder was that Tig has better big-hit impact strength but brazed holds up better against constant smaller impacts/vibrations (i.e. great for road bikes).

Anyways, at some key joints I think Curtlo may have possibly welded my frame and then brazed over the welds. I say that because you can see weld-beeds and heat discoloration.. not positive though, what do you think Brant?

Looks like the gussets were welded no?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,849 Posts
Curtlo's not welding and then brazing. He fillet brazes. Welding first would increase construction time and cause issues with the brazing. There's no need for it.

Some guys who braze will produce work that looks a lot like welding, with big, exaggerated beads of braze. I think it's sorta cool, but you don't see it too often. I believe that's what you're seeing on Curtlo's gussets. The color of that beads matches the brass (low-fuming bronze) and that's a tip-off. Plus, the gusset would go on only after the main tubes are done, and TIG over brazing = instant weld contamination.

Plate gussets tend to kill frames right at the edge of the gusset because they create stress risers. The flex of the tube is abruptly stopped at the gusset and it creates the effect of a longer head tube, further reducing the truss-effect of the front triangle....

Let me know if you suffer from insomnia and want me to discuss structure further...

Most frames aren't ridden enough to ever experience that failure, though.
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top