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my church is the woods
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was looking for some feedback on what to do about my vanilla R rear shock.

Here's the story:

I've got a Bergwerk Moonraker, single pivot 120mm travel bike. For the past 2.5 years I've been riding it with a Rock Shux sid xc dual air rear. I really liked the ride on the trail, it vas also very reliable, except for having to add air to the negative chamber regularly. It did bob away on the road, which I have to ride on for usually half my ride to and from the trails.

So I got a used Vanilla R and sent it to have the pro-pedal type conversion done by PUSH. I told them my riding style of aggressive xc riding, weight, etc. Anyhow, I got it back 2 weeks ago and now have 3 good long rides on it.

Here is what I've noticed:
1. all bob on the road is gone. it feels like a hardtail...(a heavy hardtail, but maybe thats just me being a little out of shape.)
2. the rebound can be set to slow or slower. this maybe is the reason for #3.
3. bunny hopping over big logs is much more difficult. I used to be able to spring up and hop over 1 to 2" high logs no prob., but now my rear wheel is very difficult to bring up over.
4. the swingarm is less stiff side to side. I know this has nothing to do with PUSH, but I didn't realize that the Sid rear shock's shaft must be much more stiff than the skinny shaft on the coil-over. Also, the extra 550grams is noticable on the climbs.
5. It tracks only slightly better on the downhills.
6. one big difference is pedal feedback. I used to feel kickback in the cranks when pedaling over an object that compressed deeply and rebounded while pedalling. That is no more a problem.

So, my point is that there seem to be pro's and con's to the new PUSH shock. question is, should I be satisfied with the pro's? should I send it back to PUSH to try and make it more to my liking? Can a shock have these type of mods and still be a good bunny hopping bike? Should I sell it and just go back to my Sid? your comments are appreciated.
 

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Registered Dietitian
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most of your issues...

moonraker said:
I was looking for some feedback on what to do about my vanilla R rear shock.

Here's the story:

I've got a Bergwerk Moonraker, single pivot 120mm travel bike. For the past 2.5 years I've been riding it with a Rock Shux sid xc dual air rear. I really liked the ride on the trail, it vas also very reliable, except for having to add air to the negative chamber regularly. It did bob away on the road, which I have to ride on for usually half my ride to and from the trails.

So I got a used Vanilla R and sent it to have the pro-pedal type conversion done by PUSH. I told them my riding style of aggressive xc riding, weight, etc. Anyhow, I got it back 2 weeks ago and now have 3 good long rides on it.

Here is what I've noticed:
1. all bob on the road is gone. it feels like a hardtail...(a heavy hardtail, but maybe thats just me being a little out of shape.)
2. the rebound can be set to slow or slower. this maybe is the reason for #3.
3. bunny hopping over big logs is much more difficult. I used to be able to spring up and hop over 1 to 2" high logs no prob., but now my rear wheel is very difficult to bring up over.
4. the swingarm is less stiff side to side. I know this has nothing to do with PUSH, but I didn't realize that the Sid rear shock's shaft must be much more stiff than the skinny shaft on the coil-over. Also, the extra 550grams is noticable on the climbs.
5. It tracks only slightly better on the downhills.
6. one big difference is pedal feedback. I used to feel kickback in the cranks when pedaling over an object that compressed deeply and rebounded while pedalling. That is no more a problem.

So, my point is that there seem to be pro's and con's to the new PUSH shock. question is, should I be satisfied with the pro's? should I send it back to PUSH to try and make it more to my liking? Can a shock have these type of mods and still be a good bunny hopping bike? Should I sell it and just go back to my Sid? your comments are appreciated.
...appear to be consequences of going from a lightweight air shock to a coil-over. Weight and lateral stiffness have nothing to do with the PUSH mods.

That being said, the lack of bunnyhop-ability (for lack of a better term) is inherent to pretty much all of the new shock designs. My Romic had a similar behavior, and I know from riding friends' Bullits that the 5th Element shocks are even harder to bunnyhop. It's a consequence of the slower rebound that keeps the rear glued down. My PUSHed Float R has slow and slower (and then molasses-for-damping-oil) rebound speeds as well, but I like slow rebound, so no problem for me.

Of course, you could make the point that "bunnyhopping" by pre-compressing the suspension to launch over obstacles isn't truly bunnyhopping at all. BMXers and trials guys do it by pulling up on the bars then rotating the wrists forwards, pulling up the rear end to follow the front. This works with any bike, even with slower rebound.

My suggestion? If you can live with the extra weight and decreased lateral stiffness, then stick with the PUSHed Vanilla. The other benefits you mentioned (no pedal feedback, no bobbing, slightly better downhill tracking) seem to outweigh (no pun intended) the drawbacks.

If not, maybe you should sell the Vanilla and pick up a Float R to get modified. In your situation, I would have done this initially, as there would be no weight penalty, and the lateral stiffness issue would be avoided (not that I would have expected that to be an issue, crazy that a SID air shock actually adds lateral stiffness to that design). All the Floats I've owned (3 over the last few years) have held air very well and been ultra-reliable.

If you decide to get a Float, I have an extra Float R AVA (7 7/8" X 2") sitting around.PM me if you need it.

Tommy
 

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The stiffness thing is understandable, some bikes do rely on the bigger-shaft of air-shocks to add some rigidity to their bike. This isn't the best way to go about things, but you will notice a difference when you go to a shock that has such a small shaft.

Many shocks these days, curnutt, 5th element, etc, have that "slow rebound top-out". Like you, I am not sure it is such a good thing, as it seems to be detrimental sometimes.

Personally, Push doesn't make the shock that I want. The shock that I want has an adjustable platform that allows me to go to "zero" pedaling platform. While one might say to just use a 5th element, the 5th elements do not work this way nor does my curnutt. I can't take them to "zero" platform, and I can't get rid of that little bit of harshness whatever I do. Yes the push is very good, but I want something I can tune to work like a fox vanilla, and then turn a knob and get it to work like the push or 5th for pedaling. Supposedly the fox DHX is going to do this, but it is a wait-and-see for me.

One thing though, give it a chance. I have two bikes, one with a 5th elmenet, and the other with a curnutt. Thes are arguably the "worst" shocks to try and bunny-hop with, yet I have no problem doing it. It takes a little while to get used to it and to use your body a little differently to "hop", but most people do get used to it and it isn't a problem after a few weeks of riding.
 

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"El Whatever"
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Jm....

The Fox Triad seems to do what you want to. But I'm aware is only available as OEM on the Spec Stumpjumper FSR '04.

Moon - What is your Vanilla size?? Would you sell it??
 

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Do It Yourself
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moonraker said:
3. bunny hopping over big logs is much more difficult. I used to be able to spring up and hop over 1 to 2" high logs no prob., but now my rear wheel is very difficult to bring up over.
Do you mean 1 to 2 foot logs? 1 to 2 inches shouldn't even register on a 5" travel bike.

Anyway, I would check out the shock bushings and reducers on the Vanilla. It shouldn't be any less stiff than your other shock. The rebound knob only adjusts slow speed rebound damping. You should set it at the minimum level that you can ride without getting bounced off the bike on the bigger hits. No matter how high you set it, it won't affect mid to high speed damping which is preset internally by Push.

I agree with Tommy. Most of your pros and cons are in regards to air shock vs coil and not really Push related. Also, Sid rear shocks are OEM junk and not good examples of an air shock. The Floats are much better and very reliable (not including the lockout models).
 

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Warp2003 said:
The Fox Triad seems to do what you want to. But I'm aware is only available as OEM on the Spec Stumpjumper FSR '04.

Moon - What is your Vanilla size?? Would you sell it??
Uhh...the fox dhx does what i want too...and its aftermarket.
 

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Chillin the Most
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Jm. said:
Personally, Push doesn't make the shock that I want. The shock that I want has an adjustable platform that allows me to go to "zero" pedaling platform.
2 words - Fox DHX!! Keep a close eye on this thing, when it's released. :D
 

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shut up and pedal
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Maybe this is apples and oranges.Float versus vanilla.

My float was pushed 2 weeks ago. I had it set up for rough trail and 200lbs rider weight w/gear. Immediate impression was the lack of "bobbing" on hard surfaces. It sure seemed harder to bunny hop for what thats worth (never really could anyways lol)
Several rideson rocky single track made the push mod shine. Rebound control and climbing is so much better. Like other posts the rear tire just sticks, with less "monkey motion".. bunny hops ...I will have to adjust to the different setup, no big deal.

My vote goes for less wasted motion yet supple. That would be a custom tuned push.
 

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moonraker said:
-snip-
4. the swingarm is less stiff side to side. I know this has nothing to do with PUSH, but I didn't realize that the Sid rear shock's shaft must be much more stiff than the skinny shaft on the coil-over. Also, the extra 550grams is noticable on the climbs.
-snip-
I would check that all the pivot bolts are snug, one or more may be loose from when you changed the shock (I have one annoying pivot on my bike where the lock nut has loosened several times, so I've replaced it with a fresh nylock nut when that happens). If they are tight, you might check the pivot bushings/bearings for play (including the shock eye reducers).

As to weight, AFAIK the Sid is somewhere around ~200=250 grams right? I think a Vanilla R is ~450-500 grams, and I can't really notice an extra 1/2 lb on my bike anyway, so I would guess the suspension play is more of a factor.
 

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my church is the woods
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks for all the advice.

My feelings now are that I will probably try and sell it and maybe look at getting a float, or some other type like a swinger air with more adjustability.

Is $250 reasonable to ask for it? it's 7 7/8 x 2 with a 450 x 2.39 spring.
 
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