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Discussion Starter #1
...and the people perpetuating them???

SUGGESTION-- Don't reply to them at all. Let them have their own post party until they get sick of it and let it drop off the page. Every time one of us responds it pops back up to the front of the board.

STOP REPLYING!!! Even if you are insulted, as I am, by many of the posts and the tone therein.

If you are like me, you want the Ellsworth board to be a place we share tips, tricks, suggestions, criticism and complaints in a human and civil matter, and tell each other how cool our bikes are.

Let's try and make it that.

Thanks,

Michael
 

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msylvan said:
If you are like me, you want the Ellsworth board to be a place we share tips, tricks, suggestions, criticism and complaints in a human and civil matter, and tell each other how cool our bikes are.
Your bike is SO COOL!

Too bad the owner of the company is unethical, a liar, and a monumental problem with consistent customer service.

p.s. Who is forcing you to continue to read threads that you are "sick of'?
 

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not so super...
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I just found the 1st person for my Ignore list

steve3 said:
I believe you have the coolest bike. I hope you weren't posting that reading Teen Bop magazine and listening to N'Sync in the background.

You were born with free will in a country that supports it. If you need others to support you in your boycott of something you can censor for yourself, then you have issues with peer pressure.

Be cooler than the bunch. Go out on your own and stop clicking on these threads. They will no longer exist if you stopped clicking on the link.
Thanks for your oh so constructive posts steve3. :p
 

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orthonormal
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Does anyone wonder why...

msylvan said:
...and the people perpetuating them???

SUGGESTION-- Don't reply to them at all. Let them have their own post party until they get sick of it and let it drop off the page. Every time one of us responds it pops back up to the front of the board.

STOP REPLYING!!! Even if you are insulted, as I am, by many of the posts and the tone therein.

If you are like me, you want the Ellsworth board to be a place we share tips, tricks, suggestions, criticism and complaints in a human and civil matter, and tell each other how cool our bikes are.

Let's try and make it that.

Thanks,

Michael
the negative posts regarding Ellsworth continue ad naseum?

Do any of you remember the fiasco with the Titus Locomotos that were outsourced? Several frames broke, Titus recalled the whole bunch and took longer than promised to get people's replacement frames back to them. Does anyone wonder why Titus was so easily forgiven while negative feelings toward Ellsworth linger on?

It's not about the bikes and it's not about the warranty.
 

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bald
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67 Posts
Do any of you remember the fiasco with the Titus Locomotos that were outsourced? Several frames broke, Titus recalled the whole bunch and took longer than promised to get people's replacement frames back to them. Does anyone wonder why Titus was so easily forgiven while negative feelings toward Ellsworth linger on?
The reason Titus escaped fairly unscathed, is they didn't try to charge for the warranty. I know at least of four Loco's that were effected. Don't get me wrong, i like the way my truth rides, but when i broke the seat tube and sent it back for warranty, i didn't expect to be told that, one the failure was due to the rear shocks inadequacies, and two, i would need to fork out 200 or so for a romic in order for the warranty to continue. The shock was spec'd on the bike by ellsworth and therefore if it was a problem to begin with should be fixed by ellsworth not the consumer. They did try to do the appropriate thing by offering cost, but one I can prodeal it cheaper, and OE spec is even less than that. I think that in itself is wrong because they're making money on that. Currently I'm looking to get another bike that's a little beefier than the truth, and the Id fills that nitch that i'm looking for, but i have serious questions to whether or not support that behavior.
 

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How about non-ellsworth owners that think the issue has been beaten to death? Time to move on and talk about better things.

(Turner Owner)
 

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yeah

I am not posting on the anti-ellsworth threads to become troll bait and keep the threads going but i still hate this new board format and this is one of the reasons, the thread will never go away now. I will bet a year from now it will be still in the top 25 most recent threads and reach 9000 posts. I even feel hesitant in posting on this troll bait thread.<p>I haven't been keeping up with the anti-ellsworth threads once they go past 10 posts but i did just notice that even the moderators are being attacked and accused of editing the anti-ellsworth threads. wow<p>I blame this new board format (j/k) and we must move back to the old format so that these threads can be pushed off and we can move on.
 

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Trucking & Extortion
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Blah Blah Blah

All of you Ellsworth riders ting your bikes are so cool. Well if you ask me, I haven't seen a bike cooler than Pete's
 

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Cleavage Of The Tetons
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the qoute actually goes...

"Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels". Just clarifying, although your quote captures the same spirit adequately. It is an apt riff.
 

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sock puppet
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yep, same here... no credibility left...

no go back to your hole steve and turn down that bad boy Justin Timberlake...

SSINGA said:
Thanks for your oh so constructive posts steve3. :p
 

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Cleavage Of The Tetons
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PS, the reason Titus escaped criticism IS....

because, as stated by a previous poster, they honored their warranty, as quickly as they could, without question, or dissent, or attempting to blame the customer. The fault was with Kinesis,(only outsourced annodization, who, BTW, produce some Ell. product) and not Titus, and they easily shared the cause, and even pro-actively issued a recall, something that I don't EVER recall E. doing. Period. I am proud to carry Titus. They ROCK. This is not an E. slam, exactly, but an explanation of my experience with BOTH companies. I wish TE luck in revitalizing his policies, I , as a small businessman, have had to review policies and change them as well, as customer demand evolved. Caveat Emptor, Veridad.
 

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Rolling
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msylvan said:
...and the people perpetuating them???

SUGGESTION-- Don't reply to them at all. Let them have their own post party until they get sick of it and let it drop off the page. Every time one of us responds it pops back up to the front of the board.

STOP REPLYING!!! Even if you are insulted, as I am, by many of the posts and the tone therein.

If you are like me, you want the Ellsworth board to be a place we share tips, tricks, suggestions, criticism and complaints in a human and civil matter, and tell each other how cool our bikes are.

Let's try and make it that.

Thanks,

Michael
What Michael? Are you in denial that this is not happening? I think this discussion is as valid as the postive discussions. No, Let's not make it,
msylvan said:
...and tell each other how cool our bikes are.
The truth is that many folks have had problems with their bikes and warranty issues. I benefitted from knowing about this when I had to deal with warranty issues on my bike in terms of being prepared and approaching Ellsworth. Maybe I was lucky. Was I lucky my frame had two major design defects and it broke? I'm still riding an Ellsworth because my frame was replaced but I was preparing myself to switch brands if it didn't work out. I enjoy my ride but also enjoy hearing all this dirt too.

This whole issue is very entertaining, especially since Tony joined in and even sucked Sherwood Gibson in it. There is a lot of Passion about it here--both good and bad. The whole history of it is an interesting story and I wrote a burb a few months back regarding Ellsworth, Ventana, and Dreamride. Like I said, "It's going to be interesting where things go from here."
 

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blame me for missed rides
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it's a mystery to me why some ellsworth owners consider this board "theirs alone". did i miss anything that was saying "you shall not post in a manufacturer's forum if you don't own one" when i registered the mtbr handle? i assume all potential buyers or the curious who are looking for information should not post in this board then, and neither do they deserve the information regarding warranty or the durability/design of the product. additionally, it seems that these info seekers should only know the good things about the product and how cool they are regarded by respective owners, who just paid a few grands for their new rig.

btw a lot of people (not restricted to this topic alone) seem to think "since bikes of all brands break, then one brand cannot break more frequently than the others under manufacturer-stated riding conditions", and that "if you don't own XXX, then the facts about XXX that you have gathered are not facts and all you have to say about XXX is crap". how laughable.

sorry to interrupt your "my bike is cool" dream, it won't happen again.
 

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jealousy

It was a mystery to me why people who don't own an ellsworth bike or never dealt with their cs or would never consider owning an ellsworth bike would be so concerned about ellsworth. I could see Pete's interest in the subject but not the third parties, till now.
 

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sock puppet
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weather said:
it's a mystery to me why some ellsworth owners consider this board "theirs alone". did i miss anything that was saying "you shall not post in a manufacturer's forum if you don't own one" when i registered the mtbr handle? i assume all potential buyers or the curious who are looking for information should not post in this board then, and neither do they deserve the information regarding warranty or the durability/design of the product. additionally, it seems that these info seekers should only know the good things about the product and how cool they are regarded by respective owners, who just paid a few grands for their new rig.
where did you get that impression sir? i, as an ells bike owner, want to know any and all issues that other owners have or info that non-owners may have that will enhance my ownership experience. we just dont appreciate when someone is bashing the brand time and time again without adding any new info. just beating the very dead horse all over again... no need for that. share info with us and move on... i think that is fair... it is a mystery to me why you are saying that...

weather said:
btw a lot of people (not restricted to this topic alone) seem to think "since bikes of all brands break, then one brand cannot break more frequently than the others under manufacturer-stated riding conditions", and that "if you don't own XXX, then the facts about XXX that you have gathered are not facts and all you have to say about XXX is crap". how laughable.

sorry to interrupt your "my bike is cool" dream, it won't happen again.
how can you really comment on manufacturer X CS if you have never talked with them or if you have never used their service... i understand that second hand info may be credible, but where is your interest in all that. Steve owns a broken bike that is of the other manufacturer and yet he is spending more time and energy bashing Ells, brand with wich he doesnt have any touching points. if you know his motive, please do share.
 

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blame me for missed rides
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osokolo said:
where did you get that impression sir? i, as an ells bike owner, want to know any and all issues that other owners have or info that non-owners may have that will enhance my ownership experience. we just dont appreciate when someone is bashing the brand time and time again without adding any new info. just beating the very dead horse all over again... no need for that. share info with us and move on... i think that is fair... it is a mystery to me why you are saying that...
please check "anyone considering..." thread's post # 3, 5, and 7. i didn't have enough patience to check the entire thread though. before you start saying "i don't feel that way", let me just tell you that how you feel will not change how i feel or how anyone else feels.

i believe it is NECESSARY to bring the topic to this board because when potential buyers seek information about ellsworth, they deserve to know this. without this entire discussion, unless someone has followed the boards for years, he would not know just how serious is the problem with ellsworth. i do not think too many people have patience and time for that.

demanding a change in bad business practice is a legitimate (sp?) move. i do not think ownership is a requirement for that.

osokolo said:
how can you really comment on manufacturer X CS if you have never talked with them or if you have never used their service... i understand that second hand info may be credible, but where is your interest in all that. Steve owns a broken bike that is of the other manufacturer and yet he is spending more time and energy bashing Ells, brand with wich he doesnt have any touching points. if you know his motive, please do share.
sorry, facts do not need motives. facts are facts. seeing so many former ellsworth owners/dealers/business partners speaking up is enough for me to conclude about the business practice of a company. you received good CS does not mean others do too. a few happy customers do not equal good CS or business practice in general. so far from what i have seen, unhappy customers <b>who have dealt with ellsworth CS dept</b> even outnumber happy ones.

what or whether steve has a motive is totally beside the point of discussion. fact is ellsworth has very questionable business practice and very inconsistent CS service, which IS a very important aspect to consider when buying a 2000 dollar frame.

please realize that what you see as bashing might not seem so to others. saying something is bad when it really is is called speaking the truth. imo what you and truckeelocal and a few other very defensive ellsworth owners have done is really making matters worse. are people who were turned away going to reverse their decisions and buy ellsworth because current owners successfully convicted steve3 for bad motives? no. facts remain and those are what would keep people from choosing ellsworth. until the problems related to those facts are dealt with, the scar on the reputation of ellsworth will remain.

that's all i wanted to say in this board. good night.
 

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sock puppet
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by all means

weather said:
please check "anyone considering..." thread's post # 3, 5, and 7. i didn't have enough patience to check the entire thread though. before you start saying "i don't feel that way", let me just tell you that how you feel will not change how i feel or how anyone else feels.

i believe it is NECESSARY to bring the topic to this board because when potential buyers seek information about ellsworth, they deserve to know this. without this entire discussion, unless someone has followed the boards for years, he would not know just how serious is the problem with ellsworth. i do not think too many people have patience and time for that.

demanding a change in bad business practice is a legitimate (sp?) move. i do not think ownership is a requirement for that.



sorry, facts do not need motives. facts are facts. seeing so many former ellsworth owners/dealers/business partners speaking up is enough for me to conclude about the business practice of a company. you received good CS does not mean others do too. a few happy customers do not equal good CS or business practice in general. so far from what i have seen, unhappy customers <b>who have dealt with ellsworth CS dept</b> even outnumber happy ones.

what or whether steve has a motive is totally beside the point of discussion. fact is ellsworth has very questionable business practice and very inconsistent CS service, which IS a very important aspect to consider when buying a 2000 dollar frame.

please realize that what you see as bashing might not seem so to others. saying something is bad when it really is is called speaking the truth. imo what you and truckeelocal and a few other very defensive ellsworth owners have done is really making matters worse. are people who were turned away going to reverse their decisions and buy ellsworth because current owners successfully convicted steve3 for bad motives? no. facts remain and those are what would keep people from choosing ellsworth. until the problems related to those facts are dealt with, the scar on the reputation of ellsworth will remain.

that's all i wanted to say in this board. good night.
i absolutely respect the fact that you and anyone else is entitled to your own opinion. I dont have any problems with people sharing their bad and good experiences with their bikes and/or bike manufacturerd. quite contrary, i do want to hear these experiences as the info may improve my own experience. my only point about all this ellsworth issue was the way the information was imposed by few people on this board.

obviously people are buying ellsworth bikes and will continue buying them regardless of this crap. ellsworth is making good bikes, no one is arguing that fact, i think. if thier bikes werent good, they wouldnt have been in the position where they are on the market.

were there some instances where customer service could have handled problems better? yes, and i am not arrguing against that. is it neccessary to bring that stuff up on this board? absolutely yes, so that potential customers know and so that ellsworth hears about our concerns and improves as a customer related company. as an ellsworth bike owner, it is in my interest that ellsworth improves not only their bikes but as a whole and i would make an effort to contribute to that positive change and welcome others' efforts.

as you can see, i am not disputing any of your points.

what i am disputing ithough, s the way the info was imposed on me (i dont want to speak on behalf of others). i felt that there was personal agenda or ulterior motive on the part of few people that were bashing the brand. that goes beyond good taste as far as i am concerned.

i hope you understand where i am coming from.
 

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Riding free's the mind
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yeah stop the whining...

I believe the Truth for instance is a tough bike to guarantee to not break. If you own one you'll understand that it can be tempting to push it beyond what it was designed for. Once a big person gets on a Truth and decides to huck, the frame is toast. I really think many of the breakage complaints come from poor judgement on use.

With that said, I think to get a light weight FS frame, you have to compromise on strength somewhere, you can't get both.

I think it's a great bike, way beyond my capabilities as a enthusiast trail rider. An honest criticism... too expensive. In fact any of these "custom" frames that sell for almost $2k are just over the top. Ok, I paid for it and no regrets, but when you think about material and build cost, man, that's some profit.
 

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Yo Andy!...

andy f said:
the negative posts regarding Ellsworth continue ad naseum?

Do any of you remember the fiasco with the Titus Locomotos that were outsourced? Several frames broke, Titus recalled the whole bunch and took longer than promised to get people's replacement frames back to them. Does anyone wonder why Titus was so easily forgiven while negative feelings toward Ellsworth linger on?

It's not about the bikes and it's not about the warranty.
Titus did it on their own and paid for it all themselves. Sound a bit different than what some folks have been through with Ellsworth? Yeah they were slow on the replacement, but they even apologized for that. The only thing Ellsworth has done is make excuses with some folks.

If you can't figure it out you deserve what happens. Personally I think the Ellsworth owner has handled it badly. That many bad reports on a product points to a problem at the top level of management and he could have done the right thing and sucked it up. The feeling is that he's a cheap S.O.B. and won't stand by what he's promised. Not a good thing in any business.

The Ellsworth brand has always been at the top of the boutique bike makers. It'll be too bad if the attitude of the owner is what does it in. Sometimes people let their egos do all the talking.
 

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The Long and Short about the Ellsworth Warranty

The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty

The Short—
THE WARRANTY.
Resolving accusations our warranty not being honored is about making the facts available to everyone. The warranty, is available on our website: (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2003 Ellsworth WarrCard.pdf) Anyone interested in the facts can read it for themselves, instead of reading only hearsay and rumors. The execution of the warranty has been directly in line with what is written.

THE ADVERTISING.
As to the allegations of false advertising claims that the warranty is something other then has been practiced, etc.? I’ve added an “ad archive” of every ad we’ve placed in North American media, since ‘99/’00 (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm) You can check it out for your self rather then take everything you read in a MTBR discussion board for fact without checking it out on your own.

The Long—the rest of the story:
CUSTOMER SERVICE.

First, I appreciate customers taking time to relate their positive experiences in the discussion board. Sony did a study in the 80’s every customer service manager knows like scripture. It goes something like this:

For every satisfied customer, 1 out of 10 will tell of their satisfaction 1 time. On the other hand, 10 out of 10 dissatisfied customers will tell no less then 10 people of their dissatisfaction…10 times!

As for allegations or accusations of bad customer service. I have three things to say:

First, no one is perfect, though we’re constantly striving at Ellsworth, no one there has given up taking care of our customers and dealers.

Second, If there are 10 dissatisfied customers on MTBR (count the negative posts usernames, it’s not that diverse) they are telling 10 times the same dissatisfaction. Your hearing it 10 times amplified. On the other hand, the 10 satisfied Ellsworth owners represent hundreds of satisfied customers.

Third, You need to know that there’s more to the story that you’re not going to hear from the dissatisfied guy claiming he was treated poorly. Here’s a couple special ones—ask yourself which parts of the story you actually read about on the discussion boards:

Example #1. What you read in posts: Kid with Joker, warranted seven times. What you don’t hear: Come to find out his friends were taking turns dropping it off the garage roof to the driveway busting it—why not their own bikes? Because “Ellsworth has a lifetime warranty” was the answer. “Our bikes don’t.”

Example #2. What you don’t hear: Guy drops bike on rock while lifting it over fence when it’s pretty new. Dents downtube—sends us a picture, we say, we’d watch it, but wouldn’t recommend buying a replacement right away, though it undoubtedly is a stress riser, he may ride it for years without any problems, and he could always buy a replacement at some time in the future if it became necessary. He actually posts on MTBR that he rides the heck out of it, and even despite the big dent he put in it, it’s holding up great for multiple seasons. Original dent eventually does generates stress cracks. He wants it warranted for free. He’s mad because he has to pay for replacement parts—What you read on discussion board is a rant on MTBR—flaming company for weak bikes and bad customer service.

Example #3. Guy buys bike used, sight unseen, (MTBR, Ebay…buyer beware) bike breaks. He’s second owner—no applicable warranty. Shock that it came with isn’t a Truth part number, too short, worn out. He is offered to buy replacement parts and shock at a deep discount. He’s mad because he didn’t get shock (wear component) and frame (not original owner) for free. Flames us for not honoring warranty on a used bike and a wear component.

Example #4. Here’s a super reasonable case I just handled myself as it isn’t very common and I didn’t want any misunderstandings about what was to be done: Three year old front triangle failure. Not current version or technology of the Truth—no like parts in stock to warranty with. Despite the fact that our destructive testing and accumulated research shows a better then 90% correlation with under inflated shock, or hydraulic lock due to lockout left on, or worn out air shock, heavier riders and large frames. User set up is considered the owner/operator responsibility—as stated in warranty and owners manual and FAQ on website. In spite of this, we are willing to warranty the front triangle with a brand new one to the original owner no charge, once with an explanation letter about shock set up and use. However, shock lengths and rockers have changed (longer shock for lower shock shaft velocity and lower leverage ratio rockers to ease the demand on the shocks—specifically benefits heavier riders ride quality and increases durability). Owner is offered to replace his three year old and likely worn out shock for dealer cost, and purchase the new rocker assembly for a deep discount off what it would be at retail (necessary to accommodate the newer shock, if something like this had happened within the first year, we’d have provided the rocker at no charge). Cost to upgrade entire frame after three years of regular use to a brand new 2004 Truth…approximately $500. Or you could look at it as a $1,500 credit toward a brand new frame (“current technology” warrantee language).

Let’s take this last example and look at it, because here in lies a few of the frustrations with the current warranty that I am aware of. I am aware of three of these situations where I was unable to come to a meeting of the mind with the owner. Never the less, I did what was disclosed clearly in the warranty. I don’t know how to remedy the hard feelings, as what was done above is exactly what the warranty states would be done.

This is where that whole bad rap about customer service and not honoring warranty on MTBR came from in the first place I think. This doesn't happen like this very often. But when it does, most of the time, folks are ecstatic about $500 for a brand new frame. Occasionally, someone is indignant about the $500--didn't read the warranty, or maybe doesn't understand products must evolve and change to become better over the years, like software, cars, ovens, motorcycles, shoes, and yes...bikes. And they continue to rant and complain on MTBR so that you'd think the whole world has broken Ellsworth's...and Ellsworth blows them off when it happens. These rants are half-truth’s of a vocal few. As to the idea that I change products to avoid warranty that’s ridiculous.

You can categorize the number of times product evolutions have happened and recognize these MTBR rants if you know what incompatibilities have happened in the last decade. The allegation that I change products so I don’t have to warranty, or can make money by selling current parts at a deep discount them is untrue. Only a very small percentage of the bikes we ship world wide ever have problems, why would I spend the 18 months of R&D and the cost of retooling JUST to skirt coughing up a few free frames to warranty in the course of the year? The concept propagated by several discussion board mavens is preposterously confused and lacks any mathematical, numeric, or financial reason whatsoever.

Here is an actual list of the product changes that involve some degree of incompatibility, only one is complete incompatibility, and we offered upgrade programs to help. Check it out.

1996 Truth’s changed from 80mm of travel to 100mm of travel. Front triangle and shock changed so that if you had a front triangle warranty on a bike before 1997, you had to buy a new shock at dealer cost to make the frame go again. For new shock at dealer cost, you got more travel, Easton tubes, lighter stiffer stronger frame, and brand new shock.

2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years. We maintained warranty replacements until about 2002—then parts just ran out. At that time we offered a half price upgrade to the new Instant Center Tracking, cartridge-bearing Truth to any Ellsworth owner to keep them on current and warrantee-able parts. We took a lot of heat from dealers on that, who expressed their concerns that these folks upgrading should’ve been back to the dealer to buy the new bikes, as the old one’s were likely worn out and should be replaced at the dealer. We continued to offer the half price upgrade well through
2002. And dropped it to about a 35% discount the next year. By then the bikes being upgraded were well over three years old and not current technology, though there are still many of these old Truth’s out there that are loved and work great, and I still maintain inventory of service parts (bushing pivot kits available on website).

2004 Truth’s started shipping in mid 2003 utilizing the longer shocks and lower leverage ratio rockers. (better ride quality, especially for heavier riders, increased durability due to lower leverage ratio).

2002 Id’s got a new disk specific seat stay. 2001 (first year) had canti stays. Both worked great, but the disk specific stay was in high demand. We offered the opportunity for owners to upgrade at about 40% discount. Again took heat from dealers, AND took heat from owners who asserted that it was better then the old stay (which worked fine) and therefore the old stay was defective and we should give them the new stay for free—that the upgrade charge was greedy! Most people were glad to have the opportunity to upgrade the bike to disks and more tire clearance for a couple of hundred bucks. This had no affect on how Id’s were or are warranted. What you read on MTBR is the old stay was defective (not true) and we were charging to replace defective stay. The fact was the upgrade was optional—not mandatory, and the canti-boss stay worked as designed and intended on the original bike. Upgrade offer was optional.

2003 Joker gets major upgrade after four years of production. Longer Travel, stiffer, stronger, etc.. Original owner gets upgraded on any part that fails, but would have to potentially buy a shock for it to get the full benefit of the new design.

That’s it. I think in each case the upgrade path is more then valuable for the associated cost, IF ANY that might be applicable. The above is the ENTIRE story of how warranty is handled if parts have evolved. No more complicated then that. Again, if you read something that deviates much from the above—ask yourself what part of the story your not reading on the discussion board.

In the last four years, we have made more alterations, or improvements to the Truth then we did in the first 6 years of production. Mostly because we sell more, and the companies resources for R&D have made it possible to break new ground with the suspension technology, which is why when you get your new '04 Ellsworth, your just going to LAUGH at the mass media frenzy stuff…concerning the “newest” suspension system. And ask yourself “what’s the possibility the “latest, greatest, newest” design will still be here in it’s current form in 5-10 years like the Instant Center Tracking four bar link has been.”

Is there a problem understanding the warranty? I’m not sure. I’ll ramble on a bit more about it, and please take a look at the warranty on our websites FAQ section, or at the direct links above and below and email me what you think at [email protected] .

I do think the current warranty is more complex to administrate then other warrantees, I think this stems mostly from my desire to stand behind the craftsmanship of the frame for the lifetime of the frame. Unfortunately, this gets complicated—I admit. Here's why the current warranty is potentially complicated, and may well be flawed if it’s so commonly misunderstood:

First, let's say a guy is using the frame pretty hard. Which is OK, but his use is going to fatigue the material faster then another's use that might be more on the XC end of things. “A Truth is NOT a free ride frame.” You can see by definition alone, prescribed, or designed use is very difficult to define--what is XC? What is Freeride?...etc. No human can define it the same twice and agree with another human. Thus, I've determined that in this respect, my "lifetime" warranty is flawed and probably impossible to administrate without pissing people off at some point.

Second, it is impractical if not impossible to spend time and oh so little precious financial resources to manufacture and inventory parts for every Truth I've made in the last 10 years. If I never changed or improved on them, no one would want them. If I change or improve it, sometimes there is incompatibility. In MY mind (again, not everyone would agree, though many have) the opportunity to ride the heck out of a truth for three years and get a BRAND new one for a deep discount is a GREAT deal. Again, think of another industry... Drive the heck out of an off road truck, and get a new one for half price! What a deal! But again, not everyone agrees with me. However, many owners have taken advantage of this to keep fresh equipment--that causes troubles with Dealers who want to sell new stuff at full price when a person has worn out the old frame (lifetime doesn’t mean it can’t be worn out). And you can WEAR OUT a Truth...although almost everything on it can be maintained, if there are parts available. It is the lifetime of the frame...and though the warranty specifically states that if the replacement part isn't available (or that frames lifetime is over) a "credit towards current product will be issued", folks get mad that we did EXACTLY what the warranty says we would do...!? In this respect also, the perception of my warranty causes problems and misunderstandings.

Change the warranty? Help us decide. The warranty is for you—I want to give the owners and prospective owners what they want.

If the warranty changed to a strait two years, then if we exceed expectations, folks will be happy. As it is now, due primarily to the two issues above, we risk falling short of someone's expectations on what is a generous and liberal warranty in this industry (read the collection of industry warranties in FAQ section of www.ellsworthbikes.com see links). Pretty much ALL or ANY manufacturing defect, or material defect shows up within the first year. After that, it's probably fatigue, or misuse, or something. And for the few rare times it's clearly a defect of some kind--even if it's outside 2 years--won't the guy be happy that we stepped up and honored it anyway out of warranty?!

I know in my heart, and have verified with destructive testing and by FEAing others designs up and applying the same dynamic loading to my designs and theirs that Ellsworth bikes are more durable for the prescribed use then any in the industry by as much as double. AND they are all lighter then the same prescribed use bikes of other brands...that’s something we’re proud of and it is proof of some sweet and expensive engineering, design and materials. But nothing lasts forever, and while I'm perfectly willing to do a lifetime of the product warranty—will owners read warranty so they don’t just end up pissed off when the situation arrives that they've gotta buy replacement parts to keep it good? Please help us decide: [email protected]

Just like my wonderful Dodge Diesel Truck. 90,000 miles of wonderful service, and I need new shocks for the second time, new springs, a bed liner...a door seal, a dome light switch--stuff needs maintenance. It's a scientific fact called atrophy, right? Bike frames are not exempt from this. Any way, when a man thinks about it like this, it's all good. But too often, as this discussion board seems to attest to folks have had false expectations concerning the warranty. And it does makes me sad, because I care, and my staff cares, and we do our level best to take care of our customers.

Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time. So you’ll need to collect your thoughts and email them to [email protected].

*Download the ads—see there’s no misrepresentation (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm);
*Download the current warranty, let me know if any of it is unclear or if you think the way we’re handing or have handled warrantees is not inline with what we said we’d do (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2003 Ellsworth WarrCard.pdf);
*Check out this collection of sample industry warrantees http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/Sampling of Industry Warranties.pdf ) how do these compare to the Ellsworth Warranty?
*Finally, take a look at my potentially “more easily interpreted warranty” (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2004 Ellsworth WarrCard.pdf). Is this a better, clearer warranty?

Email me your thoughts: [email protected]

I value your input, as Ellsworth owners, as potential owners, or even if your not interested in an Ellsworth just as a fellow cyclist. I’m listening to your input and opinions to make owning a bike with my name on it a splendid experience. Even if you’re ranting on the discussion boards, and profess to know me well enough to hate me, I invite you to harness that energy and email me insightful and honest opinions about the material I’ve made available for everyone’s review. Include your contact information; the most useful suggestions or comments may receive a token of my appreciation for participating in providing valuable focus on the potential improvements or upgrades to the Ellsworth Warranty.

In the end, it's about making people happy, healthy, and able to enjoy the planet in an environmentally healthy way. I'm a firm believer that a man reaps what he sews, and when I'm done on this planet, I will be pleased in the knowledge that I've sewn seeds of making many people healthy and happy, and not obliterated the planet in the process.

I really appreciate your expressing your views, and your willingness to consider what I've put in print here. I remain available to any suggestions you might have to make the experience better. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration in this matter.

Sincerely,
Tony Ellsworth
 
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