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The best thing MTBrs can do is connect with EBRPD employees who ride bikes. Then make a stink about what you want. Next do the work to make some stuff happen. The basics.

Good luck,
fiskare
 

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jschwart73 said:
In fact, I actually don't mind that some of the nicer trails in their parks are off limits to bikes - If bikes were legally allowed on some of the trails I love, then they'd get THRASHED by those who don't have an idea what brake modulation means. Look at Cinderella in JMP - It is HAMMERED these days. I'm glad to have a legal trail that's as fun as that one, but the amount of damage on that trail is staggering and I can't imagine the day is too far away when the City of Oakland closes that trail to bikes.

Working together doesn't work, if only because MTB'ers as a whole (there are of course, exceptions such as BTCEB and the like) don't have the same level of resources as many of the other trail use groups out there.
Unfortunately like a buddy told me today "it's like shoveling smoke" and some riders just don't care. Check out these photos (and captions) to get an idea of what's brewing in JMP. Same group submitted a 75 page restoration proposal which was accepted by the San Francisco, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency – Wetlands Regulatory Office last month. (Hint: it didn't say lets build a DH one way trail in the park.) Some riders won't get a clue until we're all kicked out.
 

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Fiskare said:
The best thing MTBrs can do is connect with EBRPD employees who ride bikes. Then make a stink about what you want. Next do the work to make some stuff happen. The basics.

Good luck,
fiskare
Boy, I wish it were really that simple. And this may be the problem with the kind of support that comes from the mountain biking community. There is some ambient attitude out there that “all you have to do is.....” It's just not the case. With that sort of perspective it's hard to appreciate that those who have worked so hard are effective when the results are so limited.

Frankly, there are many days that I just want to say to hell with it and just ride my bike like all the other mountain bikers in this area.
 

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You would know better than I.

I did not say 'all you have to do is', but I did say 'The best thing MTBrs can do is....'

I know the struggle.
 

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In fact, I actually don't mind that some of the nicer trails in their parks are off limits to bikes - If bikes were legally allowed on some of the trails I love, then they'd get THRASHED by those who don't have an idea what brake modulation means. Look at Cinderella in JMP - It is HAMMERED these days. I'm glad to have a legal trail that's as fun as that one, but the amount of damage on that trail is staggering and I can't imagine the day is too far away when the City of Oakland closes that trail to bikes.
Outta curioasity, what's wrong with the condition of Cinderella, just the rutting from heavy brakers??

I just rode it for the first time a week or two back and thought it was pretty damn smooth with the exception of the very last part of it where it drops you on the fireroad.
 

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Fiskare said:
The best thing MTBrs can do is connect with EBRPD employees who ride bikes. Then make a stink about what you want. Next do the work to make some stuff happen. The basics.

Good luck,
fiskare
No doubt it's so easy to sit around and say "those guys are real jerks, EBRPD sucks". But if local riders make an effort to do as Fiskare suggest they'd find out that a fair amount of staff aren't haters and some are bike enthusiast. (I wish I could say the same about the board.)

I know most rides are working and don't have time to attend meetings on a work day, but if you have a couple hours next Friday, BTCEB is hosting an IMBA presentation called Better Living Through Trails - The power of mountain biking to improve your community. The presentation, given by the International Mountain Bicycling Association, explores the positive relationships between communities and their trail systems. The key topics covered will be: The economic, health and wellness benefits that trails and mountain biking bring to an area; the value of singletrack trails; economics of singletrack trails; building community trails; creating destination trails; case studies.

The presentation is really geared towards recreation managers, local business, trail professionals, & public agencies, not local riders, but there will staff from EBRPD (including a couple park supervisors). Obviously no one should show up looking for a fight, but it is a chance to hear about the possibilities. Presentation will only last a couple hours (and is right next to JMP).

The East Bay Regional Park District kindly donated the Richard Trudeau Training Center (11500 Skyline Blvd in Oakland) for the presentation on Friday, March 18th at 9:00 am. If you have any interest you can RSVP on IMBA's web site.
 

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monkei said:
Outta curioasity, what's wrong with the condition of Cinderella, just the rutting from heavy brakers??

I just rode it for the first time a week or two back and thought it was pretty damn smooth with the exception of the very last part of it where it drops you on the fireroad.
Put yourself into a set of hiking boots and climb up/down that trail. Top 1/3, after the first turn, has a 4-6" rut running down the middle of it. Rock garden rutting is significantly deeper and wider than it has ever been in the past 3 years. Braking bumps right before the S turn are amazingly deep. And of course, the end part.

You either see/feel it when you're going fast or see it when you're going really slow (hiking). I suppose if you're riding moderately, you wouldn't see it in some places, but honestly, it's in really horrible shape in quite a few spots.

We're gonna get kicked out of that park in spite of the best efforts of more than a few people trying to preserve our access there, because it's a no-win battle trying to get people to stop skidding down some of those trails.
 

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We're gonna get kicked out of that park in spite of the best efforts of more than a few people trying to preserve our access there, because it's a no-win battle trying to get people to stop skidding down some of those trails.
Yeah, that's a difficult issue. I can only hope that bikers who haven't been riding long enough to figure out brake modulation will get it eventually.

There is an unstoppable force of new bikers getting into the sport with heavy and fast descending bikes and far better braking than was commonplace 15-20 years ago. How to address this issue without reducing access to what few legit awesome trails exist is definitely something I'm interested in.

I came there because I was told the trails were kinda technical; I appreciated the condition of the trail because my bike felt pretty perfectly suited to it and I had fun with the bumps and ruts n' rocks.

Put yourself into a set of hiking boots and climb up/down that trail. Top 1/3, after the first turn, has a 4-6" rut running down the middle of it. Rock garden rutting is significantly deeper and wider than it has ever been in the past 3 years. Braking bumps right before the S turn are amazingly deep. And of course, the end part.
I'm not much of a hiker, but my ankles hurt thinking about hiking up that!

Can trailbuilding efforts just not keep up with the use?
 

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jschwart73 said:
Put yourself into a set of hiking boots and climb up/down that trail. Top 1/3, after the first turn, has a 4-6" rut running down the middle of it. Rock garden rutting is significantly deeper and wider than it has ever been in the past 3 years. Braking bumps right before the S turn are amazingly deep. And of course, the end part.
BTCEB has been lobbying to reroute the lower section for at least 5 years. Sunset Trail (which is the fire road at the end of Cinderella) gains elevation to the west of Cinderella. The trail can be rerouted away from the creek along the hillside and pick up 30-40' and hit Sunset just above Siniwik Cabin, which would really reduce the grade and not have the POS at the bottom.

The problem is that with the trail so close to the creek, park management has been reluctant to dive into the permitting process. This is basically a problem along the entire trail as it's super rutted and the outside edge needs to be cut down by about a foot. But you can't just cast the dirt down the hill as it'll end up right in the creek. So it's a lot of work outsloping the trail.

We flagged the bottom reroute about 4 years ago. You can still see the pink flags starting at the top of the long straight section. (There's a TON of poison oak in this section so you don't want to be looking too close.)

And here's the big rub. If you download the Sausal Creek Watershed Enhancement Plan and start reading at page 160 (173 of PDF - yeah it's a 300 page document, three years in the making) it talks about soil erosion in JMP. On page 163 (or 176 of PDF) it says.

"Cinderella Trail borders Cinderella Creek and probably was originally constructed as a skid trail for logs. This trail is very steep and highly eroded. It currently functions as a bucket road: the convex road surface concentrates flow in the low point at the center of the trail and erodes fine sediment in storms. These fines are deposited on Sunset Trail and in Cinderella Creek. This trail needs to be re‐graded to an outsloped condition with rolling dips to intercept sheet flow from the road. Several ephemeral tributaries and one spring to Cinderella Creek also course over the trail, adding to the runoff on the trail. These tributaries need culverts to move the water to Cinderella Creek. This trail should be considered for closure due to the high cost to repair and stop the environmental damage it causes."​
:eekster:

So there's people who want to close down this entire trail and don't want to see any reroute.
 

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monkei said:
There is an unstoppable force of new bikers getting into the sport with heavy and fast descending bikes and far better braking than was commonplace 15-20 years ago. How to address this issue without reducing access to what few legit awesome trails exist is definitely something I'm interested in.
Can trailbuilding efforts just not keep up with the use?
Actually that trail doesn't really want to be there, nature-wise. Left to its own devices it would gradually disappear. That it is a trail at all is due to trailwork. That it is amended pretty significantly to be a higher quality bike trail is due to a huge amount of trailwork.

Having set that tone, it is important to understand that this trail is so heavily used because there is so very little of this type of trail anywhere in the East Bay. Fine riders get a hoot from it and unskilled riders do too; everyone and their brother goes there for this teeny length of trail.

I've seen adults with huge guzzling pick-ups full of kids in full-faced helmets shuttling this over and over on weekends. Christ, the dam*ed trail is barely 1/2 mile and you have to drive 4-5 times that to get back to the top. The desperate use of Cinderella is pathetic in the greater context of mountain biking but it is all we've got and it is just beaten up.

Add the dozens of bozos who show up to ride off trail because they heard it was "gnarly"at JMP with no effort to maintain the legal trails at all and the people who do work on them get to feeling constantly behind and poorly used. No, this is not a good recipe.
 

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That it is a trail at all is due to trailwork. That is is amended pretty significantly to be a higher quality bike trail is due to a huge amount of trailwork.
The guilt is beginning to set in, haha. I've been looking at BTCEB trailbuilding events for a while, just gotta get off my butt and commit to a day of trailwork.

understand that this trail is so heavily used because there is so very little of this type of trail anywhere in the East Bay
This is why I find myself driving to places as far as SC and Oat Hill from the east bay (almost) every weekend to ride.

I've seen adults with huge guzzling pick-ups full of kids in full-faced helmets shuttling this over and over on weekends.
That does strike me as rather silly, the climb back up isn't bad at all!
 
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