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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
i see on one has switched production of the ti456 to van nicholas. i have a lynskey built ti456 that i'm very happy with. it's on one's choice to change fabricators but i found it interesting that they say van nicholas are head and shoulders above lynskey?

regardless what you think of the lynskeys i don't think you can question their ti fabrication skills. i realize that on-one has to put a spin on changing fabricators but why not just say it was to keep the costs down? hell, lynskey has done work for nasa, i think that would qualify them to build a bike? they have the skills to make their helix tubes and basically do almost anything with ti you desire.

i just found the comments about the old version weird. the old model had great reviews and was built to on-one's spec. i know brant left on-one, but it's not like lynskey couldn't have implemented the changes on-one was after on the new version. they make it sound like lynskey designed the frame when all they did was produce a ti frame to their specs. looks like they don't mind burning bridges with a fabricator.

here's the press release from on-one with a quote in case anyone is too lazy to click the link

Small refinements, but important ones all the same...

So, we have a new version of a classic that thorough testing has proven to be even better than the original! We have moved production to Van Nicholas, the Dutch titanium bike specialists as we felt that their overall quality and consistency of manufacture was head and shloulders above the Americans. Not to diss Lynskey, it just seemed like the right thing to do.

http://www.on-one.co.uk/news/products/q/date/2010/07/20/ti-456-back-in-business

is it just me or does that headtube look terrible?
 

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It's tapered, they ain't ever going to be pretty, but I still cancelled my Carbon 456 to get one of these instead...

Yeah, the comments do sound a bit strange. I suspect the whole head and shoulders thing relates to Van Nic giving them a better price per frame and offering much more flexibility on design and manufacture. Replaceable dropouts, iscg tabs etc.

Still, pretty badly worded. That's not a good way to end a relationship with a company, maybe we're seeing continuing fallout from the Brant/On One split as Lynskey are making his Ragley Ti's now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Fix the Spade said:
It's tapered, they ain't ever going to be pretty, but I still cancelled my Carbon 456 to get one of these instead...

Yeah, the comments do sound a bit strange. I suspect the whole head and shoulders thing relates to Van Nic giving them a better price per frame and offering much more flexibility on design and manufacture. Replaceable dropouts, iscg tabs etc.

Still, pretty badly worded. That's not a good way to end a relationship with a company, maybe we're seeing continuing fallout from the Brant/On One split as Lynskey are making his Ragley Ti's now.
i feel it's price as well. i don't know much of van nicholas but the way they made it sound left a bad taste i my mouth. i'd still take a van nicholas ti over the carbon 456, it looks a little whack. it could be the brant thing for sure but not a great way to end a relationship:confused:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
R1Phrankey said:
Strange, since Van Nicholas is not producing their own frames, but somewhere in China .... or Taiwan....??
i thought that originally but i checked out their site and it says they are built in house in according to their website:

Technology & Craftmanship
We have ten years of experience working with Titanium and we believe in craftsmanship. That is why every single Van Nicholas bike ordered is hand-built right here at our factory in Holland. But we constantly seek to evolve. New is the Astraeus. The first Seamless Hydroformed titanium frame drawing on work carried out at the Delft University of Technology. And a refined range of our own parts and clothing. These complement the most current, top-brand Group Sets and components we hold in stock, so you can specify your Van Nicholas exactly how you want. And of course, if you want the ultimate option, we'll even custom-build one of our frames exactly to your individual dimensions.

As founder and Head of Design of the company, I'm proud of the Van Nicholas range, so I am pleased you're taking a closer look.

i thought the founder was the guy who originally started airborne bikes. they were chinese junk and i thought van nicholas was building in china as well. still, the wording of that press release doesn't paint lynskey in the best light which i thought was strange
 

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"building a bike" does not necessarily mean they welded a frame; it could just be final assembly and installation of parts on the frame. Or that vagueness in the wording could just be poor choice of words. My verdict is: inconclusive
 

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Correct, that is on the VN site, but these frames are designed at VN, and complete bikes are build in the Netherlands, but welding is carried out somewhere in the Far East. So, nothing changed in the way of working of Jan-Willem Sintnicolaas, the founder of VN.
I know someone who has bought a tailormade frame at VN and this was definitely welded in china.

But, that said: it does not mean that these bikes are bad quality. If you look at Skyde, the French company. Welding takes place in Taiwan, but these frames and welds are looking very very good.

..maybe VN also has a small factory in China, owned by VN, and then it all becomes true. :)
 

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I have a titanium bike that was welded in Taiwan, and I would not mind another one one bit. I would not mind one from China as well, as long as there is a reputable outfit with quality control behind it.

Too bad i have no excuse to order one - as I already have a Transition TransAm frame, and the above mentioned titanium with 100mm fork.

I really like all the features on this new frame.
 

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qbert2000 said:
here's the press release from on-one with a quote in case anyone is too lazy to click the link

Small refinements, but important ones all the same...

So, we have a new version of a classic that thorough testing has proven to be even better than the original! We have moved production to Van Nicholas, the Dutch titanium bike specialists as we felt that their overall quality and consistency of manufacture was head and shloulders above the Americans. Not to diss Lynskey, it just seemed like the right thing to do.

http://www.on-one.co.uk/news/products/q/date/2010/07/20/ti-456-back-in-business
What I have read on the link was this:

On One said:
So, we have a new version of a classic that thorough testing has proven to be even better than the original! We have moved production to Van Nicholas, the Dutch titanium bike specialists as we felt that their overall quality and consistency of manufacture was excellent.
Nothing about dissing anybody - sounds like a reasonable statement. Price is definitely better. Did you copy your quote form their site? Including the "shloulders" typo?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Curmy said:
What I have read on the link was this:

Nothing about dissing anybody - sounds like a reasonable statement. Price is definitely better. Did you copy your quote form their site? Including the "shloulders" typo?
that's a cut and paste from their site. their spelling, not mine. the price is better for sure, but i hardly think chinese or taiwan made is head and shoulders above lynskey. you're talking a company that revolutionised titanium fabrication, not just in the bike world but also in the aerospace industry. still seems like a weird press release to me. a lot of quality bikes come out of taiwan, not so much out of china. if they just said it was to keep costs down i'd understand. but that's not what they said.

if you read the comments in the link, they've changed the post as they admit the original sounded critical.

here's what they wrote and the "your" in the quote is "their" typo as well:

JonB
22 July 2010

reply
Your right Bobm, we never intended to be crticial of Lynskey, we love the old 456 too. We have adjusted this post slightly as it did sound critical, we're just very excited about the new frame. With each new evolution we hope that our products improve as we learn from previous versions. We have kept Brant's geometry because it's earned 5 years of positive feedback and reviews but we are highlighting the tweaks too and would like to think that we've produced a product that is genuinely better than it's predecessor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
i received this answer from van nicholas regarding their fabrication

Thank you for your interest in Van Nicholas.

Our Factory is in the Far East where we manufacture all of our frames for over ten years. Our design department, sales office, assembling department and testing facilities are all in the Netherlands.

As you have seen we work with a fixed program but we also offer custom/ Tailormade made bikes.

Please let us know your wishes.

Met vriendelijke groet/ Best regards,


looking at their website it is hard to decipher that the bikes are made offshore. reading this quote i would not imagine the bikes are made in asia

Technology & Craftmanship
We have ten years of experience working with Titanium and we believe in craftsmanship. That is why every single Van Nicholas bike ordered is hand-built right here at our factory in Holland. But we constantly seek to evolve. New is the Astraeus. The first Seamless Hydroformed titanium frame drawing on work carried out at the Delft University of Technology. And a refined range of our own parts and clothing. These complement the most current, top-brand Group Sets and components we hold in stock, so you can specify your Van Nicholas exactly how you want. And of course, if you want the ultimate option, we'll even custom-build one of our frames exactly to your individual dimensions.

As founder and Head of Design of the company, I'm proud of the Van Nicholas range, so I am pleased you're taking a closer look.


it's kind of deceptive the way they advertise hand built at their facility in holland. even saying far east doesn't say if it's china or taiwan or any other country that falls under the description "far east"
 

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All true, but the frames look good.
I would not hesitate to buy one. I live in the Netherlands and know several people riding a VN. Frames look good, welds are okay and not expensive.

However, I really do not know how the VN frames are doing (bottom bracket stiffnes, etc) compared to the Lynskey, Ragley or On One frames. Really don't know.
 

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qbert2000 said:
that's a cut and paste from their site. their spelling, not mine. the price is better for sure, but i hardly think chinese or taiwan made is head and shoulders above lynskey.
Oh, that I agree, of course. But another fact is that a weld is a weld. Once it is accurate enough and free of defects, only incremental improvements can be made. If my bikedirect's Fly frame had Moot's welds, I would be bloody impressed, but it would not make a functional difference. Tubeset choice and overall design does make a difference, and that's where the designers and quality control comes in place.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Curmy said:
Oh, that I agree, of course. But another fact is that a weld is a weld. Once it is accurate enough and free of defects, only incremental improvements can be made. If my bikedirect's Fly frame had Moot's welds, I would be bloody impressed, but it would not make a functional difference. Tubeset choice and overall design does make a difference, and that's where the designers and quality control comes in place.
you are now talking about chinese ti tubing made tubing vs american made ti tubing. the weld quality won't make much difference if the tubing is suspect. again, on-one stated head and shoulders above. they've changed that after i mentioned to them it was not in good taste but to compare your ti frame from bikesdirect to a moots frame as being as good just with not as aesthetically pleasing welds is a stretch to say the least.

hard to control the quality of your tubes and welds when the bikes are welded off site. unless van nicholas is x-raying the welds when the bikes hit their shop, they can't tell jack from looking at them and they and their customers are at the mercy of the fabricator in "the far east".

tell a welder that a weld is a weld. you can't tell the quality of a weld without testing it. looking at it tells you nothing about the penetration or the tube fitment. what it looks like on the outside means little to it's strength. a lot of pretty welds on the surface are doomed to failure.
 

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qbert2000 said:
you are now talking about chinese ti tubing made tubing vs american made ti tubing. the weld quality won't make much difference if the tubing is suspect. again, on-one stated head and shoulders above. they've changed that after i mentioned to them it was not in good taste but to compare your ti frame from bikesdirect to a moots frame as being as good just with not as aesthetically pleasing welds is a stretch to say the least.
How is that a stretch? Did you ride both? I did. It rides just like any good titanium hardtail with well selected shaped and butted tubeset. Certainly much better then straight gauge tubing that some fancy American makers put out. (Litespeed I have had was certainly worse then Fly)

qbert2000 said:
hard to control the quality of your tubes and welds when the bikes are welded off site. unless van nicholas is x-raying the welds when the bikes hit their shop, they can't tell jack from looking at them and they and their customers are at the mercy of the fabricator in "the far east".
Have you heard reports of them breaking? I did not. Good Taiwan welders are quite good, that's for sure.

If they are welded off site, yes you rely on your source to control. So what? Same story with every other bit of equipment. Look at your bike - where all the critical components had been made? If your chinese made carbon bar brakes are just as screwed as if you Taiwan welded frame cracks.

tell a welder that a weld is a weld.
Once it is good enough - it is good enough. It will not be much stronger just by being a bit more neat. And if you ask - I have been working on experimental physics equipment for quite some time in my life, and fabricated a lot. Yes, I do not know all the bloody details - no they do not matter here.

If the world of BMX frames - large Taiwan shops have far better heat treating equipment then any local builder would have. Not applicable to titanium - but I see no reason whatsoever why they would not be able to make a quality job.

you can't tell the quality of a weld without testing it. looking at it tells you nothing about the penetration or the tube fitment.
Riding it is also testing. Have you heard many reports of say bikesdirect's or Van Nicolas sourced frames breaking any more then boutique ones? If you did not - all the poo-pooing them is nothing more then F.U.D.

Every time one mentions some of those boutique makers, fan-boys come out with all the tales of magic pixie-dust applied to their frames making them indestructible and climbing hills all by itself. Whatever.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Curmy said:
How is that a stretch? Did you ride both? I did. It rides just like any good titanium hardtail with well selected shaped and butted tubeset. Certainly much better then straight gauge tubing that some fancy American makers put out. (Litespeed I have had was certainly worse then Fly)

Have you heard reports of them breaking? I did not. Good Taiwan welders are quite good, that's for sure.

Every time one mentions some of those boutique makers, fan-boys come out with all the tales of magic pixie-dust applied to their frames making them indestructible and climbing hills all by itself. Whatever.
who said they are made in taiwan? they said far east which is very vague. where did i say my bike is magic? it seems you are a discount bike fan boy. i don't ride carbon bars nor am i trying to justify a discount bike from bikesdirect like you are. my op was that on-one was critical of lynskey which they admitted and changed their press release. that is all. my fs bike is made in taiwan and i'm very happy with it but all far east production is not equal just like all north american is not equal but in canada and the us we pay our workers better than china.

i stay away from any product from china if i can. taiwan is in a different league production and quality control wise. litespeed is not a great comparison because once american bicycle group bought them their quality went right down the drain. partially because they no ;onger spec us made ti tubing and partially because they are almost impossible to get a warranty out of.

i don't know much about van nicholas other than what their website says which is very misleading. it's great you like bikesdirect though. good for you.

have you ridden a van nicholas? you keep mentioning your fly and i never once mentioned your bike.
 

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qbert2000 said:
you keep mentioning your fly and i never once mentioned your bike.
Do you read what you write? Here is your quote:

to compare your ti frame from bikesdirect to a moots frame as being as good just with not as aesthetically pleasing welds is a stretch to say the least
Never mentioned once? I said you do not know what you are talking about. I do stand by that assessment.

I do not need to justify anything - justification is needed when you spend too much money for no tangible benefits besides a name on the frame.

Sure, there are crappy welders in China. Making assumption about future quality of a On One frame out of that fact is, to put it mildly, odd.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Curmy said:
Do you read what you write? Here is your quote:

Never mentioned once? I said you do not know what you are talking about. I do stand by that assessment.

I do not need to justify anything - justification is needed when you spend too much money for no tangible benefits besides a name on the frame.

Sure, there are crappy welders in China. Making assumption about future quality of a On One frame out of that fact is, to put it mildly, odd.
as a bikes direct customer you seem to be trying to justify your purchase of a discount frame. again, good for you.

my original post was about on-ones comments about lynskey which they have changed. my lynskey made on-one frame is a mildly worked ti frame. i would not compare it to a helix tubed lynskey frame and i wouldn't compare the van nicholas on-one frame to that either. but they aren't in the same price category. you coming on to defend your discount frame has nothing to do with my original post on on-one's press release. you've chosen to turn this into a defence of your discount ti purchase which is in my view "odd" .

i still believe it is disingenuous of van nicholas to say that their frames are hand built i holland when they are not

on-one obviously agreed with my view of their press release as they changed it to take out the wording of van nicholas being head and shoulder above lynskey.

since i own a bike that isn't a name brand then why are you making out like i am defending owning a boutique brand?
 

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qbert2000 said:
as a bikes direct customer you seem to be trying to justify your purchase of a discount frame. again, good for you.
Of course I do. I am not in a habit of making unjustified purchases.

qbert2000 said:
since i own a bike that isn't a name brand then why are you making out like i am defending owning a boutique brand?
Because it seemed that way. Well, nevermind. I guess we need to wait for reports on the new On One frame.
 
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