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A little lesson on plaform..

First, it is a very simple exersise to "nose off" or "take the edge off" of that platform feel, while retaining the amazing bump absorbtion and bottomless feel CV/t shocks are known for. When the 5th coil was first introduced, many variations were tried. From full platform to little to no platform. At the time, the general concensus was that full platform was the way to go, also was higher than normal low speed rebound. As trends come and go, platform is getting less critical, also the general public is wanting faster rebound settings. Tuning changes have been made accordingly. Be rest assurred, the CV/t technology has been continually tested and refined since its introductin into MTBs. The ATV/MX shocks are far more refined than what has been used on MTBs.. Mostly because there's more stinking room in a 48mm ATV shock than a 1.125" or 1" MTB damper. The technology developed on the ATV shocks may eventually work their way into the MTB market, given that it all can be made to fit in the tiny package.

Yes, more adjustable is better.

bmadau said:

A little lesson on plaform..

First, it is a very simple exersise to "nose off" or "take the edge off" of that platform feel, while retaining the amazing bump absorbtion and bottomless feel CV/t shocks are known for. When the 5th coil was first introduced, many variations were tried. From full platform to little to no platform. At the time, the general concensus was that full platform was the way to go, also was higher than normal low speed rebound. As trends come and go, platform is getting less critical, also the general public is wanting faster rebound settings. Tuning changes have been made accordingly. Be rest assurred, the CV/t technology has been continually tested and refined since its introductin into MTBs. The ATV/MX shocks are far more refined than what has been used on MTBs.. Mostly because there's more stinking room in a 48mm ATV shock than a 1.125" or 1" MTB damper. The technology developed on the ATV shocks may eventually work their way into the MTB market, given that it all can be made to fit in the tiny package.

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Thanks for your comments. The options for adjustable platform damping are getting better, particularly by Progressive (and Manitou through license from Progressive), and the coming Fox shocks for '05. The Romic and Fox Propedal shocks are not adjustable enough for the more balanced anti-squat suspension geometries, and are too harsh riding unless the suspension design squats and bobs a lot without a lot of compression damping (or platform damping) or friction. The most advanced suspensions require "no" platform (actually there is always a little static friction "stiction", and reservoir charge caused compression preload platform in shocks which produces a small to moderate platform damping effect in every common fluid or sticky sealed air damped shock).

Most riders aren't so picky and neurotic about performance as me (maybe I'm feeling more pain and getting weaker as I get older?). I like very active and balanced and efficient and smooth suspension. Platform damping is reactive and really produces semi-active suspension action. A touch of semi-active action is OK near sag, but not a lot for best pedaling and bump handling in my opinion. More intelligently designed suspension geometry does this better for a greater range of riding conditions than platform damping to enhance less balanced designs in my opinion.

The Marin Wolf Ridge designed by Jon Whyte has proved to me that balanced and efficent suspension with up to 6-inch travel is possible without using platform damping. Longer travel, longer than 6 inches may not be able to produce a good balance without significant platform low speed damping.

Platform damping is a semi-lockout, the Fox and Stratos inertia valve designs are full lockout platform designs.

- ray

bmadau said:

A little lesson on plaform..

First, it is a very simple exersise to "nose off" or "take the edge off" of that platform feel, while retaining the amazing bump absorbtion and bottomless feel CV/t shocks are known for. When the 5th coil was first introduced, many variations were tried. From full platform to little to no platform. At the time, the general concensus was that full platform was the way to go, also was higher than normal low speed rebound. .

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I don't think you have a good grasp on the shocks and how they perform. You can't make 5th feel like a fox or romic. There's always that harshness in there, even with the minimum psi in the shock. They pedal well, but the best thing I can say about the suspension action is that they are resistant to bottoming. This doesn't mean that they have a "nice" spring curve that feels great over a wide range of impacts, that is simply not my experience with them. They do what they are supposed to do, but not a lot more, and the suspension action leaves a LOT to be desired, compared to fox, romic, and avalanche. This is kind of what many people have already known, but it has kind of fallen by the wayside as well, it's being said that it's the "future" of mtb technology, but I think we are starting to see a backlash where people want great performing suspension before the "best pedaling", the new fox DHX is an example, as well as the popularity of romics.

The do not have real slow rebound, they have a top-out circut that makes the rebound real slow at the top of the travel, but this doesn't mean that you can't adjust the rebound to be pretty fast, you can do this easily, it's just the top out will always be the same..

I've yet to experience amazing bump absorption from the multiple CV/T shocks that I've owned. I think I've gotten the most out of them that is possible, but amazing bump absorption is somewhere where they fall pretty short...

Warp2003 said:

So Jm.... in your opinion....

What would it be the solution to this dilemma?? How Could you achieve it?? Is already available somewhere???

Cheers....

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I am trying to come up with a solution as we speak

Anyhow, I never really rode the "propedal" fox shox, I kind of "bypassed" them (this will make sense later) but in my opinion, the "perfect solution" is a shock that has adjustable low speed compression damping, with a seemless blowoff, also one that can "keep up" at high speed just fine. This isn't super hard to do, but it isn't something we've seen much of untill fairly recently. Romic basically has an adjustable low-speed compression mechanism with a blowoff, avalanche has had adjustable low speed compression and I am sure it has a blowoff too. What does not have a blowoff is the countless fox RCs that are still around, the compression adjustment had no blowoff, and affected the entire range of compression, rendering it useless for any kind of compression adjustment. The 5th element and all CV/T shocks have an adjustable platform, with a blowoff. This is a little different, but I think the biggest folly is that you can not turn this feature "off" all the way, it still behaves the same when you run the minimal amount of pressure, it's just that it's to a lesser degree, but it is still very noticable to me. The holy grail is a platform that can be turned all the way "off", or the adjustable low speed compression that has the same kind of adjustability. This is starting to become more popular, and all the evidence right now points to the new fox DHX as being the perfect blend of adjustability (as in making it super-plush or "firm" for pedaling), which is why I ordered one this morning We shall see. I have owned multiple CV/T shocks, they are ok, I think that the suspension action is lacking. I've owned many non-CV/T shocks, and I think that with the addition of adjustable low speed compression, these could be much more stellar than they are just by themselves. The new DHX is supposed to have completely "decoupled" propedal and progression adjustments, supposedly it's the only shock that has this, but I do know that the progression (air volume) and platform (pressure) adjustments in the 5th element are coupled, you get the biggest platform effect when running the air volume on the small size, and running the air pressure on the high side, at least this is what the progressive techs told me, and if what they told me was true, then it means that the CV/T technology is not "decoupled", for whatever it is worth. There's also better valve technology that can be (and is being) brought about, the Push dual stage piston damper is one example, and they are supposedly very impressed with the new fox DHX as well, which means that it most likely has a much better piston/damper than the old vanilla RC models.

Who knows where it will all go, but adjustable low-speed compression with a seemless blowoff would go a long ways for me, romic is almost there but the reliability of their design is just horrible. It's the only shock I've ever blown 3x, I'm not easy on shocks, and I've blown all but one brand (the one that i've only had for a month though ). There's also the question of adjustable progression, which if done right, doesn't seem like it will hurt anything and be quite beneficial to many bikes and others. It's been done already obviously, but again, I'm not completely happy with the 5th, I think things can be a good deal better.

Jm. said:

I don't think so. I've ridden behind many of the "most efficiant" suspension designs, and I've observed plenty of bob from even those. What makes a difference on those bikes is that it's not super-excessive, they are light bikes so you can ride them all day, and the bob is not immediatly perceptable to the rider, but that doesn't mean that it isn't happening. The white bike is supposed to be mimicking a horst link is it not? I can assure you that horst link bikes bob quite a bit, even the little 3" XC models. It's not excessive, but your statement is pretty wild considering...

Your 6" marin doesn't bob at all without a platform shock? In all gears? I'd believe that ONLY by seeing it...

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Well the Marin bike is supposed to have (and feels like) a more "parabolic" path. And feels very similar to what Dave Wegal did using different linkage with the Hollowpoint. The path is rearward enough to counter pedal squat near sag (where pedaling with power is done) then the path slope transitions into more vertical (to the ground) and then forward, with a tighter curve than could be produced with a Horst link or variations of the long link 4-bar designs. On smooth pavement the Wolf Ridge produced no noticeable bob and very quick seated pedaling in the small and middle ring acceleration gears, in any of the 4 - 6 inch travel adjustments I tried in about a 30 minute test both on and off road. Standing does produce increased bob in the middle ring. (My Horst linked Tracer, which with 4 inch travel bob's a little more while seated than the Wolf Ridge at 6 inches, and the Tracer actually does not increase in bob as much as the Marin when I stand and pedal at a faster cadence and actually feels firmer pedaling when standing in the same gear although the fork bobs much more). On rough ground and over rocks the Wolf Ridge has very good suspension compliance to bumps and no noticeable sense of pedal kickback. So I believe the Marin tech person (who set up my demo bike) that the path curves forward in the deeper range of travel, which produces better pedaling spin compliance in bumps than a more vertical to the ground reference, low monopivot-like path. And finally the Marin Wolf Ridge used a simple Fox Float without Propedal. (I would prefer coil but the suspension was designed for air and is probably increasing falling rate in shock linkage which could be too much geometry platform for a less progressive sprung coil shock). I've tested a lot of suspension bikes and the Wolf Ridge is one of the best rides and most adjustable in handling and travel that I've experienced. It is a very versatile, good climbing XC trail and freeride bike. Try to get a test ride, It's pretty amazing for 6 inch travel.

Another thing to note is that there are very few real Horst link bikes available now (in the US market), only Titus and Azonic are currently producing designs that are very close to what Horst Leitner designed. The FSR, ICT, NRS, KHS, Iron Horse, and even Turner designs and other chain-stay four bars are not really very close to a Horst design. They are each modified away from the original design, perhaps for marketing distinctions, perhaps due to lack of understanding of path dynamics, and possibly to adapt in some cases better to platform shocks (to reduce harshness), and race performance gains in the case of the NRS, and Dave Turner told me he raised the drop-out pivot and main pivot to avoid rear derailer knock and keep the same low bob pedaling anti-squat path near sag (the loss of deep travel big bump pedaling compliance is not as noticeable as banging derailiers.)

Just my opinion (and obsession!).

- ray

I think I have a pretty good understanding of CV/t technology, or at least I hope so (since I'm paid to desing and develop these shocks). I wasn't very specific on how the "simple" exercise is accomplished. It can't be done externally, so yes, you are right, you can't "adjust" one to have little or no platform. To be specific, if you have access to a service center, all you have to do is drill a .030" to .060" bleed hole in the rebound shim clamp screw, and viola. No platform. Damping force in the 1 to 5 in/sec range drops dramatically and you have all the small bump compliance you want. I understand and agree that an external adjustment would be nice but as of now, it is not possible (neglecting manufacturability and cost, almost anything is possible but then it's not profitable and that's the whole reason we're in this business in the first place) in the current design. I won't comment on the DHX right now.

I was wondering what kind of comments my "amazing bump absorbtion" statement would get.. I usually refrain from the marketting babble but thought I throw that in there to see what kind of response I'd get.. To each his own. I've heard far more praise for it's bottomless, spike-less, seamless feel than complaints. I said before, some people like ford, others chevy, which is better depends on who's behind the wheel.