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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is more of a nutrition thread, not a training or racing thread, so if you are not interested in that stuff please ignore.

I posted earlier on 100% natural smoothies, and a few people commented on my preference of soy milk vs. cow's milk, which has gotten me to reconsider the issues that made me switch in the first place. I've been interested in the debate for a long time (being a health freak and someone inclined to over-analyze what I eat), and about a year ago I thought I settled it once and for all (for myself anyway) and decided that soy milk was much better for you than cow's milk. I think the reasoning ended up something like:

(1) no cholesterol
(2) no animal fats (linked to cancer, etc)
(3) cow's milk supposedly prevents your body from correctly processing calcium and possibly other nutrients as well

However, I've recently found a lot more information bashing soy products in general, so now I'm confused as ever. For example this article seems to be well researched and lists a number of studies:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/soydangers.html

It's been published a bunch of places, and cites a number of rather dangerous sounding attributes of soy products:

(1) lots of phytic acid which inhibits the uptake of essential minerals
(2) trypsin and other growth inhibitors
(3) contains estrogen

The third reason is I think the main reason soy products have utterly failed as infant formula since several studies have shown that babies weened on soy do not develop normally. I can attempt to find the articles if anyone is interested. Really the estrogen didn't bother me that much since I think other studies have shown that soy milk really doesn't contain that much of it and it won't affect you unless you are a baby. (1) and (2) are new to me. However, now I've read that there is evidence that soy consumption in asian countries has led to problems later in life specifically tied to the levels of estrogen.

I'm also struggling with the fact that nearly every article that discusses soy vs. cow's milk completely fails to realize that you cannot compare the two purely based on the "nutritional qualities" of both. Who cares how much calcium is in cow's milk if you piss 80% of it out? Who cares that soy milk is low in cholesterol if the 4mg of it in skim milk is actually good for you? It's really easy to reason about the health benefits of different foods by analyzing the nutritional qualities of them, and I think that is why people do it, but there is a great deal of evidence that studying foods this way is completely wrong. The biological mechanisms by which our bodies derive nutrients from food are less understood than most people assume.

Soo, if anyone is still reading, I'm wondering if there are studies that are published by neutral 3rd parties discussing the trade-offs of soy vs. cow's milk. This would seem to cut the natural bias that drives nearly every article I've read so far. I haven't been able to find any.

Second, does anyone know of definitive studies on skim milk? It would seem to me that cutting the animal fats would mitigate most if not all of the problems with cow's milk, but I have no idea how the industrial process of "skimming" the milk works. For all I know it could also denature many of the amino acids.

Any other comments on the debate? I'd love to discuss this with other health nuts.
 

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It says the 2nd century BC chinese didnt eat unfermented soybeans due to high antinutrient content. (potent enzyme inhibitors that block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion) How could they know this? I'm calling BS on the article.
 

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I don't drink animal milk, since no other mammal does after weening from the teat

You have lit a fuse. The forum monkeys will be throwing their quasi-educated feces at you and each other within...1 page.

1. The dairy and cattle industry controls a lot of the information out there.
1.5. Cow milk is bad in several ways, not just the fats, but the proteins are too big for natural human digestion.
2. Soy is bad in several ways (phytoestrogens, not estrogen), but not as bad as cow milk in some ways.

Drink Almond milk! Rice milk. WATER. Or drink a little bit of each.

For smoothies, I found cow milk to froth too easily. Soy or rice is much better.

I don't drink animal milk, since no other mammal does after weening from the teat.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
JuliusCecil said:
It says the 2nd century BC chinese didnt eat unfermented soybeans due to high antinutrient content. (potent enzyme inhibitors that block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion) How could they know this? I'm calling BS on the article.
In the article's defense, I don't think the ancient Chinese needed to know anything about enzyme inhibitors to observe that eating soy made people sick, or whatever way they did figure out not to eat soy. What's understood, is that they used soy for crop rotation purposes, not for food.

Anyway, historically, cultures often "did the right thing" despite a lack of scientific understanding of the reasons they did.
 

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scone said:
In the article's defense, I don't think the ancient Chinese needed to know anything about enzyme inhibitors to observe that eating soy made people sick, or whatever way they did figure out not to eat soy. What's understood, is that they used soy for crop rotation purposes, not for food.

Anyway, historically, cultures often "did the right thing" despite a lack of scientific understanding of the reasons they did.

But it cites that as a reason why. Maybe it's just poorly written. Nonetheless, I'm a firm believer in listening to my body. Cow's milk fills me with mucus as do most animal products, but dairy is the worst. I dont like the taste of it, which is a plus. I've been on soy milk for about years now, and cant say I can put my finger on any adverse reactions. I drink less than a half gallon a week. I feel healthy as hell, althoug my intake consists largely of what I consider to be healthy, life giving foods. And even if it is toxic, so what. My overall lifestyle is healthy enough that some soy milk will probably not have much of an overall impact. I like it and I dont care what studies come out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
JuliusCecil said:
But it cites that as a reason why. Maybe it's just poorly written. Nonetheless, I'm a firm believer in listening to my body. Cow's milk fills me with mucus as do most animal products, but dairy is the worst. I dont like the taste of it, which is a plus. I've been on soy milk for about years now, and cant say I can put my finger on any adverse reactions. I drink less than a half gallon a week. I feel healthy as hell, althoug my intake consists largely of what I consider to be healthy, life giving foods. And even if it is toxic, so what. My overall lifestyle is healthy enough that some soy milk will probably not have much of an overall impact. I like it and I dont care what studies come out.
Agreed, the article could have been proofed a little better. I had an issue with that sentence the first time I read it as well.

Anyway, I like the taste of soy milk as well (although I somewhat prefer the taste of skim milk) and I've been drinking it almost exclusively for about a year and haven't noticed any side effects myself. I probably drink a gallon a week.

As far as mucus production goes, you may have a slight dairy allergy. Technically mucus production is not tied to dairy consumption: "Milk Consumption Does Not Lead to Mucus Production or Occurrence of Asthma" by Brunello Wüthrich, et. al published in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition. PM me if you want a copy, since I think you need a subscription to the journal if you want the article, which I have through my university. Also, "The milk-mucus belief: sensory analysis comparing cow's milk and a soy placebo" shows that soy milk and cow's milk are indistinguishable in terms of mucus production, at least for their subjects.

I've personally never had mucus issues with milk, even in high school when I was drinking close to a gallon a week of 2%. Then again, I used to drink milk for breakfast before cross country running races, which made a lot of the guys on the team puke up their guts. Never had an effect on me.
 

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CharacterZero said:
You have lit a fuse. The forum monkeys will be throwing their quasi-educated feces at you and each other within...1 page.

[SNIP]

Drink Almond milk! Rice milk. WATER. Or drink a little bit of each.

[SNIP]

I don't drink animal milk, since no other mammal does after weening from the teat.
Good stuff, and agreed!

Soy milk - at least in my mind - is the equivalnt to, or actually IS industrial byproduct. Dairy - well, like grains and monotheism are relatively new-to-humans, and bad for you. Nevermind all the other nasty ADM/Nabisco/OtherAgriGiantFoodProcessors products!

Clean, wholesome, simple food our pre-agrarian ancestors ate are what we are engineered to run optimally on. Almond Milk is great - and made from a tree nut, which is GOOD.

And an occasional Coke! Mmmmmmm, corn syrup, coloring, carbonation.

That said - if you drink milk - drink whole milk, not the stripped down crap that lacks the appropriate quantity of fat to help temper the sugar hit...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Lickety Split said:
I didn't know soy beans had udders??
How do you milk a soybean??
Soy milk= no such thing.
LS
Let me guess, you are also opposed to wheels having nipples? Is it because you can't milk a wheel?

CharacterZero said:
You have lit a fuse. The forum monkeys will be throwing their quasi-educated feces at you and each other within...1 page.
Nicely predicted! You are like a forum Nostradamus. :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
glenzx said:
That said - if you drink milk - drink whole milk, not the stripped down crap that lacks the appropriate quantity of fat to help temper the sugar hit...
Whole milk tastes the best for sure, but if you believe *any* of the arguments against cow's milk, you also have to believe that whole milk is the worst of the bunch (whole, 2%, 1% and skim).
 

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I like cow's milk.

I like it as rich as possible but really don't need all the fat. I don't drink as much as I used to. I like it as a base for a bavarian chocolate protein drink I make with bananas and strawberries for a post-ride glycogen window food. It is nice and frothy, especially with the banana whipped in. I have it with oatmeal and fruit well before an AM ride or late at night with a cold cereal like chocolate frosted sugar bombs. That doesn't happen much anymore either but reliving childhood once in a while is so cool.
I try not to overthink food and have generally killed people on the spot if they try and tell me how to eat because they know better.:D
 

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The 'estrogen' in soy milk is actually something else that mimics estrogen effects. The NIH has already ruled it safe for adult human consumption.

Don't EVER trust anything on the internet. Peer reviewed article only.

There is no such thing as an unhealthy food, just unhealthy portions.
 

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scone said:
Whole milk tastes the best for sure, but if you believe *any* of the arguments against cow's milk, you also have to believe that whole milk is the worst of the bunch (whole, 2%, 1% and skim).
Not about taste, but about overwhelming your liver with an imbalance of sugar vs. fat vs. protein. It's related to why one can so easily overeat carbs - as w/out the fats/proteins that trigger the "satiated" mechanism, by the time carbs fill ya up - your already over-full.

In other words, full-fat prodcuts not only help you fill up quicker, but taste better too. Healthy full-fat foods, in moderation and combined with good veggies and clean, whole-grain carbs are better yet. Bottom line is it is really hard to over-eat good, full-fat and protein foods - as the natural reaction to overeating these foods is to vomit.

Anyhow, I'll take a full-fat 1/2 cup of yogurt and be far happier with that smallish portion than I'd be with a low or no fat yogurt in 2x or 3x the portion size! Calories-wise there the same. Less fat typically = more sugar too, alas.

As noted - moderation / portion control is damned important too.
 

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CharacterZero said:
You have lit a fuse. The forum monkeys will be throwing their quasi-educated feces at you and each other within...1 page.


I don't drink animal milk, since no other mammal does after weening from the teat.
I always find this to be the silliest reason against milk. The reason no other animal does it is that no other animal has domesticated another species. I am pretty sure that if a wolf pack that could figure out how to get a constant source of protein and calories from the same cow day after day, they would. It's not that they wouldn't drink cow milk, it's just that they lack the observation and reasoning skills to do it.
 

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Oat Milk with my honey nut cheerios....... yummy:thumbsup:

Milk as brought to us by Bessie the cow is really for her babies....:D .

No horse'n around:nono:
 

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CharacterZero said:
You have lit a fuse. The forum monkeys will be throwing their quasi-educated feces at you and each other within...1 page.

1. The dairy and cattle industry controls a lot of the information out there.
1.5. Cow milk is bad in several ways, not just the fats, but the proteins are too big for natural human digestion.
2. Soy is bad in several ways (phytoestrogens, not estrogen), but not as bad as cow milk in some ways.

Drink Almond milk! Rice milk. WATER. Or drink a little bit of each.

For smoothies, I found cow milk to froth too easily. Soy or rice is much better.

I don't drink animal milk, since no other mammal does after weening from the teat.

I've had the almond, one made form oats, and one from hazelnuts. I liked em all. Dont like rice milk though. Half gallon of water per day minimum. I only consume "milk" to wash down almond butter and fruit sammiches on the high fibre cardbread, and with cereals, generally post workout, or as an occasional midnight indulgence. Yeah indulgence, most people have ice cream, I'm stuck with that.
 

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hooperjetcar said:
I always find this to be the silliest reason against milk. The reason no other animal does it is that no other animal has domesticated another species. I am pretty sure that if a wolf pack that could figure out how to get a constant source of protein and calories from the same cow day after day, they would. It's not that they wouldn't drink cow milk, it's just that they lack the observation and reasoning skills to do it.
Actually, if wolves had thumbs, then they would have domesticated cattle. And sheep. Good for you. Thanks for pointing out that wolves don't have reasoning capability, because that is what is being discussed here...but I will play.

I am pretty sure that if wolves found a way to drink cow milk all day, they would end up the size of cows. But, hold on, they wouldn't be super-wolves, but instead ballooned-wolves. Then they wouldn't be such fierce hunters, instead wallowing in their own fatty rolls and searching for honey to go with the milk. Then they would invent this series of tubes to call each other silly thru, so that they didn't have to get out and ride or fight. That is good since their mucus-induced asthma would keep them from killing effectively anyways.

Cow milk is designed (by nature) to feed cows and make them HUGE. I am a big fellow, but don't want to be the size of a cow, especially because I don't have the frame of one.

And remember, kiddos, that any HOMOGENIZATION is a BAD thing - boiling milk is elemental to destroying all evil-doers in there, but it also kills all the nutrients as well.

Goat's milk is more appropriate for the human race than cow's milk is. Think size here people.

And RAW MILK is the best if you are drinking animal milk, but good luck getting a hold of that.
 

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CharacterZero said:
Actually, if wolves had thumbs, then they would have domesticated cattle. And sheep. Good for you. Thanks for pointing out that wolves don't have reasoning capability, because that is what is being discussed here...but I will play.

I am pretty sure that if wolves found a way to drink cow milk all day, they would end up the size of cows. But, hold on, they wouldn't be super-wolves, but instead ballooned-wolves. Then they wouldn't be such fierce hunters, instead wallowing in their own fatty rolls and searching for honey to go with the milk. Then they would invent this series of tubes to call each other silly thru, so that they didn't have to get out and ride or fight. That is good since their mucus-induced asthma would keep them from killing effectively anyways.

Cow milk is designed (by nature) to feed cows and make them HUGE. I am a big fellow, but don't want to be the size of a cow, especially because I don't have the frame of one.

And remember, kiddos, that any HOMOGENIZATION is a BAD thing - boiling milk is elemental to destroying all evil-doers in there, but it also kills all the nutrients as well.

Goat's milk is more appropriate for the human race than cow's milk is. Think size here people.

And RAW MILK is the best if you are drinking animal milk, but good luck getting a hold of that.
You went way beyond my statement. I very intentionally made no mention of the health issues regarding milk, only that using that we are the only species to drink milk as a reason not to drink it is, in my opinion, silly.

Also, I think you meant pasteurization, not homogenization. Pasteurization is heating to kill off various bacteria, homogenization is just forcing it through a very small screen at high pressure to allow the fats and liquids to bond better. All it does is keeps you from having to shake the milk fat back into solution each time you want a glass of milk.

As fas as size, that is really a matter of consumption amounts. If I were to drink it as my sole liquid, you may have a very valid point, and I would need to find a lower calorie milk to drink. However, I put about 1/2 a cup on my cereal in the morning and I use yogurt for smoothies, in those cases, I am actually looking for the calorie boost, since it is figured in to my caloric intake for the day.
 

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hooperjetcar said:
You went way beyond my statement. I very intentionally made no mention of the health issues regarding milk, only that using that we are the only species to drink milk as a reason not to drink it is, in my opinion, silly.
As silly as stating that if wolves were reasonable then they would domesticate cows?!

hooperjetcar said:
Also, I think you meant pasteurization, not homogenization. Pasteurization is heating to kill off various bacteria, homogenization is just forcing it through a very small screen at high pressure to allow the fats and liquids to bond better. All it does is keeps you from having to shake the milk fat back into solution each time you want a glass of milk.
You are correct. I obviously had not had my coffee at that point.
Thanks.

hooperjetcar said:
As fas as size, that is really a matter of consumption amounts. If I were to drink it as my sole liquid, you may have a very valid point, and I would need to find a lower calorie milk to drink. However, I put about 1/2 a cup on my cereal in the morning and I use yogurt for smoothies, in those cases, I am actually looking for the calorie boost, since it is figured in to my caloric intake for the day.
It is indeed a function of quantity.
Keep in mind the most common understanding of nutrition and intake comes from our government, who have instituted this gem that states:

EAT MORE DAIRY THAN EITHER FRUITS OR VEGETABLES. (3 cups vs. 2/2.5 respectively)




So, glad you only take in 1/2 a cup, but that is not the norm. You will not suffer the fate of most consumers, due to your understanding of nutrition.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
kmoses said:
The 'estrogen' in soy milk is actually something else that mimics estrogen effects. The NIH has already ruled it safe for adult human consumption.

Don't EVER trust anything on the internet. Peer reviewed article only.

There is no such thing as an unhealthy food, just unhealthy portions.
My mistake, it's not estrogen. It's phytoestrogen, which merely mimics it.

Also, I completely agree with you on both points, and it's part of the reason I started this thread. I was hoping someone out there knows of a couple of journal papers that discuss the issue. I've found some just poking around on google scholar, but they haven't been terribly helpful since none of them so far have targeted athletes of any kind (or even regular people) but instead focus on people with really high cholesterol, or babies, or other fringe cases. I know these studies must exist...
 
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