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Is the whole poaching thing common out west? I'm an east coast guy and hear little of it, and I ride with guys who are well-versed in the local trail systems.
 

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Is the whole poaching thing common out west? I'm an east coast guy and hear little of it, and I ride with guys who are well-versed in the local trail systems.
Go browse the NorCal or the SoCal sections. It is very common.

In SoCal the main issue is not enough trails, too many people and Land Swaps.

The Land Swap issue happens too much. A Builder wants to put in 1000 homes on some open land. The City says "hey, that land is habitat, but if you buy up some other land and dedicate it to be habitat, then you can build here on this land."

Then what happens is existing trails on the first parcel get mowed over to be homes.

Existing trails on the second parcel are made illegal because that land has become "pristine habitat".

1000 families move into the new homes and a big portion of them are "out Dorsey" people who want to hike and bike trails.

The trails that are left get overcrowded with users and some users turn to riding in places where the law says it is not allowed.

That is a over simplification of one reason for rogue trails, but it has happened like that over and over.
 

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I'm one wheel smarter than riding a unicycle.
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I've never uderstood people with a bunch of forrested land getting upset with mountain bike trails on them. If you're out there camping, shooting, and hunting all the time with your family, I get it, but there is so much land just sitting around that I'm sure isn't being used in any way at all. Somebody owns it, and that's all they do with it.

I'm biased to mountain biking though. I wouldn't want the same land to be taken over by dirt bikes, 4 wheelers and 4x4s, so I get the concept of not allowing trails to be built on them, but mountain bikers are a different breed. We're not destroying the land, we're not chucking our empty beer cans all over the place, we're not camping out everywhere and trashing everything in sight. We roll over the terrain, packing in and out what we can carry on our persons, and we leave, grateful that we had the experience. Besides our tire tracks on the trails that we weave between the trees, you won't know we've been there.

There is a trail near my home, a bit more than two miles away. It's "sanctioned" by the university that owns the land. It's an attraction that the city advertises in its tourism brochure, and the picture that accompanies the description features yours truly on my bike. On the other side of the street there is gobs and gobs of forrested land, just like where the trails are. It's been there, unimproved in any way, for decades. It takes me two minutes at 45 mph to drive my car past all of it. It's probably at least 4 times the area the trails are on. It's even closer to my house than the trail system is.

Every single time I drive by it, it nearly gives me an aneurysm thinking about the awesome trails I could put on it, and why the hell has no one extended the trail system to include all of that land? I debate going to the county assessor of property to find out who it belongs to, contacting them to see if they'd be receptive to trails on it, getting the parks department of the city to work out the finer details, and getting some trails put in, but then I realize, if that were a thing that could happen, I'm sure it would have happened by now.

So I have to accept that land just sitting there, not being used for anything by anyone, just as it has for the last few decades I've been driving past it, and it eats me alive. I've walked through it. I could weave a network of trails through it, but I don't because I have integrity. That doesn't mean that it makes any sense, or that I have to like it.
 
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battle stag commander
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I've never uderstood people with a bunch of forrested land getting upset with mountain bike trails on them...

I'm biased to mountain biking though. I wouldn't want the same land to be taken over by dirt bikes, 4 wheelers and 4x4s, so I get the concept of not allowing trails to be built on them, but mountain bikers are a different breed.
Just to play devil's advocate, or like, my parents advocate, or lots and lots of people that I know and respect's advocate- "I've never understood people with a bunch of forested land that want to cover it with bike trails"

"I'm biased to forest stewardship though. I wouldnt want the same land to be taken over by loggers clearcutting everything, but landowners doing selective cutting to promote healthier forests, bird, and wildlife habitat are a different breed."

Everybody thinks thier sh*t dont stink.

Where I am in the northeast I have seen a half dozen examples of landowners being approached by a trailbuilder, often just a biker that sees a piece of land they think could have cool trails. The landowner agrees, often under the impression that the trail will only ever get moderate traffic, mostly local riders, and the fact they have a personal relationship with the builder. There are also often agreements they wont promote the trail or map it, just sharing it with friends. The builder makes a sweet trail, super fun, more techy than stuff being built by trail orgs, and then it blows up. 9 times out of 10 the straw that breaks the camels back from the landowner perspective is when random people start finding obnoxious places to park that are not actual parking spots, or are on private land. A lot of times these situations just grow out of the control of the landowner, and it generally ends poorly for everyone, and it does seem that Strava is a major contributing factor to this situation. The landowner is left saying "I agreed to a bike trail for a few locals, not a well mapped and popular mountain bike destination." 4 times just in the last 5 years in my town. Thats when the game cameras and the threatening signs go up.
 

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We're not destroying the land, we're not chucking our empty beer cans all over the place, we're not camping out everywhere and trashing everything in sight. We roll over the terrain, packing in and out what we can carry on our persons, and we leave, grateful that we had the experience. Besides our tire tracks on the trails that we weave between the trees, you won't know we've been there.

Not sure where you live but my experience has been very different. Mountain bikers tend to alter the terrain greatly with braids, go arounds, jumps, berms, straight lines, alternate lines, brake bumps, brake ruts... Not to mention new trails all together which are guaranteed to pop up. I can't blame a land owner for not wanting bikes these days.

I would bet you my house if you owned a bunch of land on a steep mountain side and allowed bikes to use existing trails, within the first year you would have fresh cut trails down the fall line that would be a braided, blown out mess in no time as soon as they popped up on strava, trailforks.... It's just were we are today.
 

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All I see is somebody unnecessarily putting holes in trees.

We get all bent out of shape when a heavier bike tears up trails or when somebody faster passes us and is rude about it but it is okay to stick holes in a tree to basically say "You suck because you passed me while being rude"
 

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All I see is somebody unnecessarily putting holes in trees.

We get all bent out of shape when a heavier bike tears up trails or when somebody faster passes us and is rude about it but it is okay to stick holes in a tree to basically say "You suck because you passed me while being rude"
Hmmmm... Nahhhhh.
 

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Strave is an app designed to expose private, secret, non-sanctioned, or illegal trails to the public and the authorities.
Apparently you’ve never heard of LiDAR.

I mean, if I can find 100+ year old mining trails at 10,000ft in CO, the “authorities” can find your newly dug trails in other areas.


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I don't see the parallel between biking trails and loggers taking trees out of the forest. I get that we might tear up land, but we don't do it anywhere near as bad as a logging outfit. I see the point though, and in principle it's not too different than I already stated about how I wouldn't like jeep trails taking over a spot, and I get it.

I just don't see what we do as that bad to land. If we were that bad, the hundreds of bikers, trail runners, and hikers, not to mention the casual pedestrian families on the trails near my house would have destroyed the land completely in the last year with all the extra traffic. As best as I can tell, there are just a few spots that have gotten any more rutted up than they have been in the last 3-4 years.

When looking at unused land through that lens, I just don't get the concern about bike trails on it. Maybe some bikers rape the land somehow, but in my personal experience over 20 years in the same area riding different trail systems, the only damage to speak of comes from storms.
 

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Out spokin'
In cog? Neato!
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Discussion Starter · #93 ·
I can’t say I’ve been following along so forgive me if this comment is off base.

Think legal liability. That, plus just the nature of humanity. If I owned property that people wanted to use (for practically any purpose), it’d be easiest for me to just say,”no.” And that’s probablywhat I’d do.

The loggers can rape the land. It’s their land.
=sParty
 

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I still have one last precious Strava sticker that I found at a shop...

"Strava- Outing douchebags since 2009"

I think it would be great to put it on an e-bike.
 

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This thread, although it probably shouldn’t,
amazes me.
Unbelievable the number of riders here who seem to think rogue riding is somehow ok.
Not being holier-than-thou —in 45+ years
of dirt biking, 29+ years mtb, and a lot of years fishing, hunting, hiking—yeah, I’ve been on other folks property uninvited before.
But not knowingly, and when I do learn the truth, I don’t go back. Seems like a few here
use the, “well, everyone else does it , why shouldn’t I” BS excuse. Because, fool, It ain’t your property.
Stay the bleep off, jackasses.
If you are riding your bike on other folks
property without permission,
YOU ARE A DICK.
I honestly don’t give a **** one way or the other
about strava or it’s users. Some use it for good, some for bad, just like almost any other
“thing” out in the world. What a surprise.:rolleyes:
Rant over.
 

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Legal liability gets me irate. My dad has land, and it has a pond on it. Knuckleheads get out there and tear the place up in their 4 wheelers, fish all of his catfish out of the pond, and swim in it. If one of them gets hurt or dies doing it, somehow my dad is responsible? That's total BS, but it's how the law works. If, however, he tacks up a single sign saying "No tresspassing" with his info on it, somehow he can't be held liable? Those laws are absurd.

If I ride through some land I'm not supposed to be on, and I get hurt, nobody held a gun to my head when I decided to ride through it. How is the land owner responsible for my actions? I'm not arguing the point, because I know that's how the law works and how sue-happy our society is... I'm saying it makes zero sense. Even if I had legal recourse to sue a land owner if I got hurt riding a bandit trail, (which I wouldn't do, but for argument's sake) I wouldn't because I have integrity. There are rights and wrongs to things, and that would just be wrong. The land owner has no idea I exist; in what logical world should he pay for my mistakes?
 

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roots, rocks, rhythm
A little of this and that........nothing cheap!
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The only thing I will add to this discussion is:
The KOM are a joke now that a lot of them are skewed by electric assist bikes....road and mountain bike.
Not that I dream of getting one but I know mine are all legit and real.
I won't go to the DARK side!
 

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The only thing I will add to this discussion is:
The KOM are a joke now that a lot of them are skewed by electric assist bikes....road and mountain bike.
Not that I dream of getting one but I know mine are all legit and real.
I won't go to the DARK side!


I have some kom's and got no electric assist so I guess them things ain't so fast after all.
 

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Your Best Friend
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Legal liability gets me irate. My dad has land, and it has a pond on it. Knuckleheads get out there and tear the place up in their 4 wheelers, fish all of his catfish out of the pond, and swim in it. If one of them gets hurt or dies doing it, somehow my dad is responsible? That's total BS, but it's how the law works. If, however, he tacks up a single sign saying "No tresspassing" with his info on it, somehow he can't be held liable? Those laws are absurd.

If I ride through some land I'm not supposed to be on, and I get hurt, nobody held a gun to my head when I decided to ride through it. How is the land owner responsible for my actions? I'm not arguing the point, because I know that's how the law works and how sue-happy our society is... I'm saying it makes zero sense. Even if I had legal recourse to sue a land owner if I got hurt riding a bandit trail, (which I wouldn't do, but for argument's sake) I wouldn't because I have integrity. There are rights and wrongs to things, and that would just be wrong. The land owner has no idea I exist; in what logical world should he pay for my mistakes?
Not in Utah. Our State rocks for land owner liability.

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Every single time I drive by it, it nearly gives me an aneurysm thinking about the awesome trails I could put on it, and why the hell has no one extended the trail system to include all of that land? I debate going to the county assessor of property to find out who it belongs to, contacting them to see if they'd be receptive to trails on it, getting the parks department of the city to work out the finer details, and getting some trails put in, but then I realize, if that were a thing that could happen, I'm sure it would have happened by now.
Dude, what if everyone who thought about this piece of land has thought "meh, it probably would've happened by now". Then it would never happen. What I think is more likely though, is nobody has thought about it for bike trails, or maybe they thought about it but nobody makes the effort. You should pursue it and see what happens. Worst they can say is no.

Reminds me of disc golf community putting in new courses. Most local clubs are fully volunteer, raise their own money to install courses and do all the maintenance themselves. 100's of people look at a huge empty town park and say "they should put a course there!" but never do anything about it. It only takes 1 person to get the ball rolling be "they". other examples are "They should really cut that tree" or "They should really trim those weeds" or "They should really have better signs". "They should really pick up the trash on the course." Who do the casual users think "they" are? Be "they".
 
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