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Aside from calling a significant percentage of riders in certain areas "the problem", how does it feel to be part of the problem yourself?

I challenge you to NEVER ride an unsanctioned trail again. That would mean around 50% of the fun trails in the state that you live in would be off limits (likely including your local favorites), but with you being such a law abiding upright citizen with a rigid constitution that shouldn't be a problem... right?

Nothing worse then a hypocrite.
I ride unsanctioned trails. What I don't do is whine and complain when people use strava or do other stupid things that get the land managers attention. I also have no expectations that riding said trails won't have consequences. Unlike the whiners I am prepared to get a ticket if caught riding said trails.

I don't have a problem with Secret or rogue trails. I have a problem with people who have unrealistic expectations that there is no consequences for their actions.
 

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I ride unsanctioned trails. What I don't do is whine and complain when people use strava or do other stupid things that get the land managers attention. I also have no expectations that riding said trails won't have consequences. Unlike the whiners I am prepared to get a ticket if caught riding said trails.

I don't have a problem with Secret or rogue trails. I have a problem with people who have unrealistic expectations that there is no consequences for their actions.
If you take the time to go out and build/ride a rogue/illegal/social trail on land you don't own, or otherwise do not have permission to build/ride on by the land manager/owner, then YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.
You're vacillating again.
 

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Whatever dude. There is no good argument for riding them and expecting no consequences. And there is less so for building where you don't have permission. I have never built unsanctioned trails, but I ride them and fully accept that others might Strava where maybe I would not and that could have consequences. I don't whine about it, I don't try and blame the strava users for the consequences. I accept what those consequences can be,.

The crux of the "No Strava" argument is guys who want to preserve some sort of secret trail society, that is just not plausible. Accept it.

Maybe instead of attacking me find a side of the issue you are on and present your arguments for why you think it is good or bad or otherwise. Trying to make some sort of character assassination on me just proves you have no good arguments to make.
 

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The crux of the "No Strava" argument is guys who want to preserve some sort of secret trail society, that is just not plausible. Accept it.
This is pretty much it.

Any land manager smart enough to use Strava heat maps is also smart enough to check photos on the internet for geotags. Or just spot cars with bike racks parked in weird places.

Even if you and your buddies all religiously keep trails digital free, someone one of your buddies invites won't take it as seriously. Or the ranger will see them unloading their bikes.

Word gets out quick.
 

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This is pretty much it.

Any land manager smart enough to use Strava heat maps is also smart enough to check photos on the internet for geotags. Or just spot cars with bike racks parked in weird places.

Even if you and your buddies all religiously keep trails digital free, someone one of your buddies invites won't take it as seriously. Or the ranger will see them unloading their bikes.

Word gets out quick.
Exactly.

It really depends on the Land Manager and how active they want to be patrolling the land they manage. Not all land managers are created equally.

In some cases, like the case where I ride the most, a hikers group took the initiative and contacted the state and made a big stink, and now the state is actively patrolling and issuing tickets. Had nothing to do with Strava and everything to do with the "bro" riders building jumps which in turn irritated a specific hiker(she has been quoted on this)...... If the one particular hiker did not live in this area and had not made such an active stand it is most likely the state would have left it as the status quo they had for the last 20 years since they took over management.
 

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A friend of mine (with a very minorly popular YT channel) got blasted for posting a video of a "secret" trail. The trail has been there for I believe well over 15 years (I think the oldest video I found was 2007).

The trail starts near the top of the ski lifts.
 

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A friend of mine (with a very minorly popular YT channel) got blasted for posting a video of a "secret" trail. The trail has been there for I believe well over 15 years (I think the oldest video I found was 2007).

The trail starts near the top of the ski lifts.
Skills with Phil came out and rode the Carlsbad Highlands Ecological Reserve, part of my local riding area and a bunch of locals reached out to him and he pulled the video. There is an ongoing campaign to get some legal trails out there and those organizing that did not want the extra attention on the area.
 

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Skills with Phil came out and rode the Carlsbad Highlands Ecological Reserve, part of my local riding area and a bunch of locals reached out to him and he pulled the video. There is an ongoing campaign to get some legal trails out there and those organizing that did not want the extra attention on the area.
This particular one would never be accepted into the legal local system in Big Bear.
 

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Whatever dude. There is no good argument for riding them and expecting no consequences. And there is less so for building where you don't have permission. I have never built unsanctioned trails, but I ride them and fully accept that others might Strava where maybe I would not and that could have consequences. I don't whine about it, I don't try and blame the strava users for the consequences. I accept what those consequences can be,.

The crux of the "No Strava" argument is guys who want to preserve some sort of secret trail society, that is just not plausible. Accept it.

Maybe instead of attacking me find a side of the issue you are on and present your arguments for why you think it is good or bad or otherwise. Trying to make some sort of character assassination on me just proves you have no good arguments to make.
Character assassination? Attacking? You must be joking. I'm just pointing out the glaring hypocrisy of your own words.

I'm not sure why you are even trying to argue "no consequences"... as if many riders like me aren't willing to accept an unfortunate ticket etc.

Since we're on the subject - Part of the reason some of these areas are being enforced is because what was once a quaint local support system of unsanctioned trails, one that land managers once turned a blind eye toward, somehow becomes a shitshow... complete with riders who have have no interest in neighborhood diplomacy, the sustainability of the trails, and overall lack of recognition of a fragile resource.

If you can't see how this might affect these trails in a multitude of ways, I don't know what to tell you.
 

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I'm not sure why you are even trying to argue "no consequences"... as if many riders like me aren't willing to accept an unfortunate ticket etc.
Every single rider who complains about strava use on unsanctioned trails is not accepting the consequences or riding or building unsanctioned trails.

Whomever put up that "No Strava" sign wants consequence free riding where they don't actually have permission to be riding.

That is my point.

Nothing I am saying is contradictory. Your comment about rowdy groups.... if there was no illegal trail in the first place you would not have a rowdy group.....


If you are going to build and ride illegal trails, then you better EXPECT them to not stay secret. Expecting everyone to play by the social trail rules is a pipe dream.
 

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Whomever put up that "No Strava" sign wants consequence free riding where they don't actually have permission to be riding.
Not disagreeing with your general train of thought, but... maybe read this post by sParty...

It is not on public land.
It is not illegal.
Not saying the many comments within this thread don’t apply. Just that some of them don’t apply to the trail in question.
 

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Thanks Ogre.

@Sparticus can you elaborate as to why that sign is there, what trail it is on and who put it up?

Is it on private land? If so who is allowed to ride there? Is the idea behind no strava to prevent people from seeing it on the heatmap and then illegally trespassing onto private land to ride it?

Context is everything right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 ·
Thanks Ogre.

@Sparticus can you elaborate as to why that sign is there, what trail it is on and who put it up?

Is it on private land? If so who is allowed to ride there? Is the idea behind no strava to prevent people from seeing it on the heatmap and then illegally trespassing onto private land to ride it?

Context is everything right?
The trails in question are on private land. I'm not positive who's land they're on, but pretty sure it's a timber company. I was told today that ownership of the land in question had changed at some point but that the previous timber company owner had allowed these trails (there are several lines down the mountain, all one-way) to exist for years and that so far the new property owner is cool with the situation.
There are blues, blacks, double blacks, jump lines. These trails are sweet.
I moved here about a year ago when COVID motivated my GF & I to "shelter in place." I build & maintain trails; have done so for 30+ years. I was invited to ride these trails which are known to the locals who build them. These trails are not on Trailforks. I don't use Strava so I don't know if these trails show up on any Strava heatmap.
I don't know who put the sign up (other than it was local mountain bikers) but I'm certain it was installed to discourage attention being drawn to these trails. That said, anyone who finds their way to the TH can ride the trails.
The timber company / landowner installed a TH parking lot for mountain bikers. That's where the "no strava" sign is.
=sParty
 

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The trails in question are on private land. I'm not positive who's land they're on, but pretty sure it's a timber company. I was told today that ownership of the land in question had changed at some point but that the previous timber company owner had allowed these trails (there are several lines down the mountain, all one-way) to exist for years and that so far the new property owner is cool with the situation.
There are blues, blacks, double blacks, jump lines. These trails are sweet.
I moved here about a year ago when COVID motivated my GF & I to "shelter in place." I build & maintain trails; have done so for 30+ years. I was invited to ride these trails which are known to the locals who build them. These trails are not on Trailforks. I don't use Strava so I don't know if these trails show up on any Strava heatmap.
I don't know who put the sign up (other than it was local mountain bikers) but I'm certain it was installed to discourage attention being drawn to these trails. That said, anyone who finds their way to the TH can ride the trails.
The timber company / landowner installed a TH parking lot for mountain bikers. That's where the "no strava" sign is.
=sParty
Now I am really intrigued. I wonder if it was put up by selfish riders who don’t want the place to be discovered, or of the logging company is trying to keep it more low key to prevent overcrowding.
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
Now I am really intrigued. I wonder if it was put up by selfish riders who don’t want the place to be discovered, or of the logging company is trying to keep it more low key to prevent overcrowding.
My guess is the people who built & maintain the trails don’t want it overrun by people who don’t understand the delicate balance they’ve created between responsible riders and the landowner. It may sound selfish — indeed it may be selfish — but there’s an ethic here that I don’t always see at other trail systems. I believe the builders would prefer that this ethic not be eroded. So based on what I’ve witnessed elsewhere, personally I feel the strategy is justified.

Easy for me to say since I have access, eh. Call me selfish.

Then again I’m surmising. No one has confirmed the things I’m saying here.
=sParty
 

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Now I am really intrigued. I wonder if it was put up by selfish riders who don’t want the place to be discovered, or of the logging company is trying to keep it more low key to prevent overcrowding.
At this point would you even accept that a land owner would actually see the value in preventing overuse? You don’t seem to grasp the concept from a riders perspective.
 

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People build 'secret' trails around here in the summer sometimes. Then summer ends, the leaves fall down, and the trail is clearly visible to absolutely everyone. We've been doing this for 30 years now.

My personal favourite was a 'secret trail' (in the pre-strava era) that by early November was clearly apparent from an adjacent 16-lane freeway. The parks department removed it at that point. It's since been re-built and re-closed 5 or 10 times.

I think we need more evergreen trees.
 
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