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NiMH batteries?

3512 Views 16 Replies 9 Participants Last post by lightingboy1, Apr 8, 2010

.40AET

Discussion Starter · Dec 16, 2009

I have a friend with a Niterider system and his water bottle battery is dying. Can it be substituted for a Lithium Ion battery? Is there some sort of performance gain with the NiMH? Same voltage/same amp rating, would that be the same run time? He would like to put somehting smaller together.

Thanks,

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

mtb_robs-x

· #2 · Dec 16, 2009

what lights? halogen ?

one of my buddies, has a hid on handlebar, and the old classic dual halogen as a headlight, the headlight , he replaced once the battery, a nimh,
now the halogen, have a lots of inrush current, and some li-ion circuits will shutdown,
not only shutdown, but not come back, till you are back in warm and cozy home, and plug it in the charger,....
so for a safe bet, just get the nimh battery with same cells, so could keep the same charger .

other than that,.... sell the lamp head,... and go for a new light system,
lights LED, battery li-ion, +charger

AlisterG

· #3 · Dec 17, 2009

This really depends on the light system, we need more info to give a definitive answer.

IIRC NiMH batts have a pretty flat voltage curve as they discharge. Sometimes NiMH HID systems have no voltage regulator circuit before the ballast, because both battery and ballast voltage ranges are (nearly) the same. A Li-ion pack's wider voltage drop will easily go above this range at full charge and below it as you approach cutoff point. HID bulbs really don't appreciate over-volted ballasts.

Trail Tech supply an inline regulator as an upgrade to their older HID system for those swapping NiMH's for Li-ion batteries, for precisely this reason. Not very useful for a Niterider though.

With halogens, over volted bulbs will just burn brighter and pop earlier, unless they are drastically different. For years Lumicycle have successfully over-volted 12v MR11's off 4S2P Li-ion packs.

Picking up mtb robs-x point, any half decent pack should have a polyswitch that protects the battery from overcurrent. 4 amps is typical for a Li-ion xS2P pack.

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LUNARFX

· #4 · Dec 17, 2009

I had a customer come in just last week with a Niterider system with the old water bottle/battery setup. We could have rebuilt his battery with NiMH cells identical to the ones that came with it, but it would have cost him a pretty penny. So we found a resolution and went with a sealed lead acid battery. I don't believe it was any more or less in weight, but then again we don't have scales at work. It worked perfectly, so that can be an option.

Lithium ion batteries will be an advantage in weight alone, but they're also more volatile to work with, so be aware. Most of the recommendations seem to make sense, and in a nutshell, be sure how you plan on powering your light should be compatible with each other.

Yesterday, we had another customer who had a smaller battery pack for his HID setup. He didn't opt to go with any other option than to just replace the cells, so we did. A set of 4000mAh, and he was back on the road today. Good luck on getting your setup up and running! You don't seem to be the only one having to revive their HID setup!

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yetibetty

· #5 · Dec 17, 2009

.40AET said:
I have a friend with a Niterider system and his water bottle battery is dying. Can it be substituted for a Lithium Ion battery? Is there some sort of performance gain with the NiMH? Same voltage/same amp rating, would that be the same run time? He would like to put somehting smaller together.

Thanks,

Yes, performance gain in cold weather as NiMH don't like the cold. same voltage/same amp rating will give same run time, again longer run time than NiMH in the cold.
Smaller and lighter will require a new charger.

If it is a halogen jobby then the protection in the LI-ion pack could kick in as the light is switched on. If the pack will be built by your friend then a high current PCB can be fitted.

Most Li-ion packs come with a 6amp PCB fine for LED lights.

What light is it? It maybe a strange one with the driver(if any)built into the original battery.

.40AET

Discussion Starter · #6 · Dec 17, 2009

The light is a Nightrider halogen. I sent an email to get the detail. Thanks for the help.

.40AET

Discussion Starter · #7 · Dec 18, 2009

NightRider Classic Plus.
13.2 Volt Dual Halogen

Dual Halogen Head Lamp
4.0 Ah NiMH bottle cage battery
NR 2.5 hour fast charger

vroom9

· #8 · Dec 19, 2009

.40AET said:
NightRider Classic Plus.
13.2 Volt Dual Halogen

Dual Halogen Head Lamp
4.0 Ah NiMH bottle cage battery
NR 2.5 hour fast charger

To rebuild it with NiMh will take 11 cells. You can get SubC sized rated at 5000mah for $5 a piece at cheapbatterypacks.com. They will even build you a pack in whatever config you want for about $60 to $70 depending on the connectors and other options you select. I've purchased from them before for some RC electric airplane batteries and those worked fine for me.

You can use a 4 lithium cell or lithium ion based battery as well. It overvolts the lights a lot more though. Lots of light, but the bulbs will not last nearly as long. The Lithium polymer packs used today in electric RC aircraft can be had for pretty cheap from Chinese websites. I was looking for 3 cell packs and found a 5000mah for $26 and change. A 4 cell version would be proportionally more I expect. That is pretty cheap.

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kleinhead

· #9 · Dec 19, 2009 (Edited)

Li-Ion 6500mAh battery

I'm in the same boat. I have a Niterider 13.2V, 3800mAh halogen dual beam with a dead bottle-type battery. I went to the local Battery Plus store and cost to repair was $130!!! While there I tried hooking to a 12V, 5000mAh lead-acid and it worked fine. Still seemed very bright, but was heavy at 3.25lbs.

On-line, I've found a much smaller, lighter Li-ion for ~$30. 12V, 6500mAh

Two questions:
1) Does running at 12V instead of 13.2V reduce brightness? (BTW - the bulbs are stamped 12V20W and 12V12W)
2) What's the consensus that a 12V, 6500mAh Li-Ion will work? What potential issues might I run into?

Thanks

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vroom9

· #10 · Dec 19, 2009 (Edited)

kleinhead said:
I'm in the same boat. I have a Niterider 13.2V, 3800mAh halogen dual beam with a dead bottle-type battery. I went to the local Battery Plus store and cost to repair was $130!!! While there I tried hooking to a 12V, 5000mAh lead-acid and it worked fine. Still seemed very bright, but was heavy at 3.25lbs.

On-line, I've found a much smaller, lighter Li-ion for ~$30. 12V, 6500mAh

Two questions:
1) Does running at 12V instead of 13.2V reduce brightness? (BTW - the bulbs are stamped 12V20W and 12V12W)
2) What's the consensus that a 12V, 6500mAh Li-Ion will work? What potential issues might I run into?

Thanks

The brightness is reduced considerably. No make that almost half. A "12 volt" lithium ion or lithium polymer is a 3 series battery. Fresh off the charger the voltage is 12.6 volts, but that drops very quickly to about 11.1 volts. Running a halogen at 11.1 volts vs 13.2 volts will give about a 40% drop in light output. A four series battery will be 14.8 volts which is a bit high for decent bulb life. I've not tried that though. Perhaps someone who has can comment. You could always use a couple of diodes in series with the battery to drop the voltage to the light. Each diode will cut about .7 volts from the battery.

A four series Lithium Iron Phosphate LiFePO4 battery would work. It has that 13.2 volts that you are looking for. The problem with them is they only have 1/2 the power density of Lithium ion batteries. That makes the costs higher.

Where did you find the $30 6500mah "12 volt" lithium battery?

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LUNARFX

· #11 · Dec 19, 2009

kleinhead said:
I'm in the same boat. I have a Niterider 13.2V, 3800mAh halogen dual beam with a dead bottle-type battery. I went to the local Battery Plus store and cost to repair was $130!!!

Exactly. Too bad you didn't come to my Batteries Plus store. I support bike enthusiasts and I offer 20% off to all cyclists (half of our small staff commute to work on bikes), and offer any possible way to save money. $130 sounds about right, but like said, I would have taken care of you at my store.

Just to add to the NiMH users out there, the initial charge for a Nickel Metal Hydride battery is 12-16 hours regardless of the light indicator on your charger. Within 5-6 charge/discharge cycles, the battery will reach it's full capacity. To maximize that capacity, fully discharge the battery every 6-8 weeks(if you use it frequently). If you don't use it for say 3 months or more, charge the battery for 12-16 hours after taking the battery out of storage. Definitely do not store the battery plugged into the charger. Fully discharge the batteries if you don't plan on using it for a very long time. By the way, this goes for any application including cell phones, cordless phones, camera/camcorder batteries, old laptop batteries, as long as they're nickel metal hydride chemistry. Hope this helps all of you!

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AlisterG

· #12 · Dec 20, 2009

Having read the more recent posts, I will re-iterate that you can run 12volt MR11's off a 4 cell Li-ion battery. I had only one bulb failure over 3 years use, typically 1 ride a week, 2 hours at a time. I ditched them after buying a TrailTech HID lamp, only to return to the halogen system this year after three HID bulb failures, at £60 a pop. Soon got bored of that.

Decent MR11's from GE, Osram or Phillips should be able to handle the higher voltage, can't comment on cheaper MR11's because I've never used them. A typical 2000hr bulb, assuming regular overvolting quarters it, still equates to 250 two hour rides.

OldMTBfreak

· #13 · Dec 20, 2009

I also ran [email protected] MR11 bulbs on 16.8V Li-ion batteries for years. I never had a bulb failure. I had spares on hand, but never used them. I bought cheapys from BatterySource. The large battery requirement (halogens drew 30 watts on fully charged battery) is what drove me to LEDs. That and the heat. The halogens ran so hot, you could smell em! Felt good to cup your hands over the lights at night. I ran a narrow focus on my helmet, and medium focus on the handlebar. Lots of light, worked well. But, the efficientcy of the halogens is POOR, 90% of the energy input is radiated as heat! This is why we switched to LEDs, only 10% of the energy input goes out as heat. The rest of the energy is light! Ok, the controller uses some energy too, only a small precent though. lol

.40AET

Discussion Starter · #14 · Dec 20, 2009

AlisterG said:
Having read the more recent posts, I will re-iterate that you can run 12volt MR11's off a 4 cell Li-ion battery. I had only one bulb failure over 3 years use, typically 1 ride a week, 2 hours at a time. I ditched them after buying a TrailTech HID lamp, only to return to the halogen system this year after three HID bulb failures, at £60 a pop. Soon got bored of that.

Decent MR11's from GE, Osram or Phillips should be able to handle the higher voltage, can't comment on cheaper MR11's because I've never used them. A typical 2000hr bulb, assuming regular overvolting quarters it, still equates to 250 two hour rides.

Isn't a 4s Li-Ion pack quite a bit over the 13.2 volts that the bulb is looking for. Fully charged, they are closer to 16v.

This would be the easiest solution. He already has a 14.8v battery pack and I could change the connectors so they all play with one another.

vroom9

· #15 · Dec 20, 2009

.40AET said:
Isn't a 4s Li-Ion pack quite a bit over the 13.2 volts that the bulb is looking for. Fully charged, they are closer to 16v.

This would be the easiest solution. He already has a 14.8v battery pack and I could change the connectors so they all play with one another.

A 4 series is actually 16.8 fresh off the charger. They drop pretty quickly to about 3.7 volts. It depends a bit on the exact type of battery, but they usually go down to 3.7 volt/cell after the first 5% or 10% of discharge.

kleinhead

· #16 · Dec 21, 2009

vroom9 said:
Where did you find the $30 6500mah "12 volt" lithium battery?

Ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310189478352&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1278wt_939

lightingboy1

· #17 · Apr 8, 2010

Batteries Plus in Flagstaff AZ

My local Batteries Plus will rebuild my Niterider Classic battery for $59.00 for a 13.2v 3400mah or $69.00 for a 4400 mah NiMH.
4 years ago it cost me $79.00 for the 3400 mah version.

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