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Hi All - I'm overwhelmed by the all the choices: Stan's setup, Stan's rims, ghetto, tubeless ready, ust, ghetto, etc...

but a couple of questions resurface repeatedly:

What's all the talk about building up the rim strips about? It seems that once the tubeless setup in inflated, the tire bead seats in the rim hook and nothing touches the rim tape.

The sealant preventing flats sounds great - you get a small puncture and the latex rushes in to clog the hole but then... doesn't that tire need to be repaired at some point in the future since the latex plug will eventually degrade?

I know this tubeless revolution seems to be great but I see and hear a lot of issues:

Unknown compatibility between all the rims and tires
Tire repair and on the road flat repair problems with sealant all over the place
Sealant mess with tire pressure topping off
Heavy UST tires or the risk of sidewall rips with Stan's system
need of a compressor for initial inflation

It seems like the best/safest/lightest option out there is Stan's rims with Stan's system going tubeless with regular tubed tires. Would you riders concur?

OTOH I'm currently running 26" WTB Wolverines 2.2 with tubes. I run about 33 lbs and have never had a pinch flat.

As with the 29er fever, I'm surprised I haven't hear more skeptics on the subject .

Chris
Denver CO
 

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There are plenty of skeptics, but also a lot of converts too.

I run Stans rims with yellow tape (1 layer is all that's needed) only on a variety of UST and non UST tyres. Unless I hit something very hard and on a weird angle I get no burping.
There are plenty of pinprick holes (20+) in my tyres from thorns etc. These may or may not continue to weep very small amounts of sealant, but there's no need to fix any of them. The only ones which require patching are the tears, which will often require a tube anyhow as sealant isn't really designed around fixing such problems.

I've actually got tyres to bead with a floor pump a few times.
Don't overinflate tyres (rims will have max pressures written on them), if they blow off at the time (or at some later stage) then the bead has stretched and the tyre is stuffed.
Tyres are your choice - running light/thin walled tyres is the same decision as with light tubes. You have to accept the limitations of what you choose.
You never 'repair' out on the trail - just put a spare tube in. By the time you discover the latex wont seal the hole its pretty much pissed itself all out anyhow.

I'm from southern Australia, and we have quite harsh rocky conditions that really need the thickness of a UST tyre to 'guarantee' finishing a race without flatting. The lightest option for me (running Schwalbe tyres) is to use the Double defence or snakeskin versions. That way I save weight off the tyre without compromising protection.
 

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I too am from denver, and am familar with the conditions you encounter.
Tubeless is where it's at. But it can be a little finicky, but is worth every consideration. Personally, I think that tires run tubeless just plain ride better. I don't know how to quantify that but I think they do. Once you get the hang of the setup and understand how they work they really aren't any trickier to deal with.
I've run Stan's systems exclusively and have been happy with them over 5 years and probably 7,000 miles of whatever Colorado can throw at them. I converted everything over to the yellow tape and stans rims recently, but ran the rimstrips on DT, Velocity, Ringle and Mavic rims without issue.
So... UST tires work better. Sidewall cuts are your nemesis and the beefier sidewalls are a better idea, plus they seem to seal a little better. Regular tires with sidewall protection are the next best followed by whatever run-of-the-mill foldable jobs you want. I carry a 30cc syringe with a big needle loaded with some stans as part of my flat-kit. If I blow through a bunch of fluid plugging a hole I refresh things a little by stabbing the tire and injecting more. A piece of inner-tube is also not a bad idea. Sidewall tears can sometimes be patched from the inside and then I use my stash to replenish what I lost.
As far as initial set-up/install. A compressor or CO2 cartridge is kinda a must. You have to put more in than you loose until you get enough inflation to seal. I then switch to the floor pump where I can monitor pressure a little easier and pump them up to near their maxi pressures. This helps seat the bead and there will be some scary popping sounds and fluid leakage and eye protection is a good idea and if you overpressurize them they will undergo rapid system dissassembly (i.e. blow completely off the rim and redecorate your garage with latex fluid). It helps to get the tire on the rim and them sorta roll it around on the ground a little bit which seems to help center the beads in the rim. As you pressurize keep a little bit of pressure on the tire near the valve stem to squish the bead down and help gain the initial seal.
Don't give up.
Once you have pressure in the tire you may notice that even though the bead appears to be seated that you're still loosing pressure. Stans works in part by sealing micro holes in the tire casing and sidewall. Grab the wheel at 3 and 9 o'clock and shake the top and bottom in opposite directions. Rotate the wheel a few degrees and repeat until you have spun the wheel completely around. This helps coat the sidewalls and beads and you may notice fluid weeping from the sidewalls. Now set the wheel so that it's flat, ideally soaking the bottom side sidewall in fluid to seal up the side. Let is sit for 5 minutes. Repeat on the other side.

So.... simple right? The setup is sorta complex, but only compared to tubes. You only need to perform this sidewall seasoning procedure once per tire, and only if running non-UST tires.
Once you're set up you're basically golden. You're protected to a degree from most flats, and really no less vulnerable than tubes to sidewall tears (the repair is slightly more involved) and you'd have to carry a tube just in case anyway, right?
Anyway... it's worth the trouble, and really isn't much trouble once you get the hang of it. I set up two wheels the other night in about 20 minutes without issue.
 

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To address your specific concerns specifically:

cjcrawford said:
doesn't that tire need to be repaired at some point in the future since the latex plug will eventually degrade?
For large punctures, probably. But most of the flats I used to get were from pinchflats and goathead thorns. The torn holes seal pretty much indistinguishably, and the pinch flats are impossible.
cjcrawford said:
Unknown compatibility between all the rims and tires
Tricky, though you can use UST tires on stans converted rims with a high degree of compatibility. I've run Maxxis, Conti, IRC, Schwalbe, Hutchinson tires without compatibility issues.
cjcrawford said:
Tire repair and on the road flat repair problems with sealant all over the place
Not really. If the hole is too big to seal before you even notice it you just rotate the hole to the bottom and let gravity draw the sealant to it, air then forces it thorugh the hole and voila! you're back in action. The actual amount of sealant involved is surpirisingly little. Even when I've had to abort the tubeless plan altogether (sidewall tear...) and remove the tire completely I didn't feel as though it was a "huge mess" or anything. And remember.... this happens relatively infrequently on a properly set-up and maintained system.
cjcrawford said:
Sealant mess with tire pressure topping off
Nope. Irrelevant. Just pump as you normally would.
cjcrawford said:
Heavy UST tires or the risk of sidewall rips with Stan's system
A concern. Can't get around this one. It's the crux of running lower pressures and greater tire deformation. Wider rims will help with that. Running 2.4s with super skinny XC weight weenie rims will end badly. Something with a nice wide footprint will give the tire more stability and you more control. Again... not a big deal anyway. Just patch and either go for a re-install or throw a tube in as you would have to do anyway
cjcrawford said:
need of a compressor for initial inflation
it definitely helps. Some USTs go on with a regular pump, but a CO2 or compressor makes life a lot easier for the rest.
 

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two days ago I put on ust nevegals on my 223 mavic rims.My rims are normal rims and I just put in the stans ust strips and it worked fine. I did find that I could not inflate the non beaded tire unless I used an air compressor. Im sure co2 will work good to. I learned the process from you tube videos. Check them out.

my 2 cents
 

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but you shouldn't use CO2 with with the sealant, Notubes advises against it (CO2->goes into solution->lowers pH->latex coagulates at lower pH values). You may use it to get the tire seated and the pour the sealant through the valve stem (core removed)
 

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quax said:
but you shouldn't use CO2 with with the sealant, Notubes advises against it (CO2->goes into solution->lowers pH->latex coagulates at lower pH values). You may use it to get the tire seated and the pour the sealant through the valve stem (core removed)
:eek:
That one I did not know. Crazy. Never really had an issue before......
 

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I've found that UST rims or tubeless ready rims (like Stans or Bontrager) will have the most care free options as far as tires.
With Stans rims you just use their yellow rim tape and any tubeless ready tire, I've also used many regular tires including studded winter tires, never had a burp or tire come off

you run into compatibility issues when you start using rim strips and regular tires, many will work and some will not, the biggest minus for me is no locking rim and tire bead

if you want to run dry you pretty much have to go UST

most tubeless riders carry a spare tube, if you get a sidewall tear or something that wont seal , you just open the tire on 1 side, pour out the sealant unscrew the valve and insert tube
I don't think you'll find too many people who switch back once you try it successfully
 

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dan0 said:
I've found that UST rims or tubeless ready rims (like Stans or Bontrager) will have the most care free options as far as tires.
Can you comment more on the Bontrager rim experience? Did you use the Bontrager rim strip, or something different to go tubeless? Did you use a "Tubeless Ready" tire that has the bead, or just a regular tire with those rims? I'm having trouble finding light Tubeless Ready tires that have the traction I want, so any tire suggestions that have worked well with Bontrager rims is appreciated.
 

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mightymouse said:
Can you comment more on the Bontrager rim experience? Did you use the Bontrager rim strip, or something different to go tubeless? Did you use a "Tubeless Ready" tire that has the bead, or just a regular tire with those rims? I'm having trouble finding light Tubeless Ready tires that have the traction I want, so any tire suggestions that have worked well with Bontrager rims is appreciated.
Not dan0, but I have been using Bontrager Race Disc wheels for the past year set-up tubeless. I use their rim strips and valve stem and have had nothing but great results using "regular" tires. I also use a homemade sealant for punctures. I don't have experience with a wide variety of tires, but I have mounted WTB Wolverines, Mutanoraptors, and a Conti Vertical Pro without any problems.

The tires seat themselves on the rim very well. You really need to work at breaking the tire off the bead when changing them out. Once inflated, and I use only a hand pump, they stay inflated. No problems with air leaking out.

Doug
 

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I've been using the Bonty Race Disc "tubeless compatible" wheels since '03 with their rim strip, Stan's valves (I like the removable core) and Stan's sauce inside a variety of WTB tires. Works great.

Since June, I've been using Bonty Race X tubeless compatible, with their rim strip, Stan's valves & sauce and one each of 26 and 29" WTB tires, works great after I put enough sauce in there to coat the new tire guts.

I have an old Xefal DoubleShot floor pump...only one I can ever seat a bead with, but I have to flail like a lunatic to pump it fast enough. I much prefer the neighbor's compressor: pssssht, POP, POP, pop!
 

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5H2O said:
Not dan0, but I have been using Bontrager Race Disc wheels for the past year set-up tubeless. I use their rim strips and valve stem and have had nothing but great results using "regular" tires. I also use a homemade sealant for punctures. I don't have experience with a wide variety of tires, but I have mounted WTB Wolverines, Mutanoraptors, and a Conti Vertical Pro without any problems.

The tires seat themselves on the rim very well. You really need to work at breaking the tire off the bead when changing them out. Once inflated, and I use only a hand pump, they stay inflated. No problems with air leaking out.

Doug
Same here. I've run Bontrager tubeless ready rims with the bontrager strips in four or five wheelsets between me and the wife, and set up a ton more for customers. Bontrager TLR tires usually air up for me with a floor pump. I usually mount up a non-TLR tire (I tend to lean towards Maxxis in a few different flavors) with a tube, let it sit for a few hours, then I can usually seat it with a floor pump. The kinks in the folding bead from being in the packaging are what will give you trouble trying to seat up a new non-TLR tire, and often a UST or TLR tire as well.

They all seat super securely for me. A thicker sidewall definitely is a plus. I've had good luck with Ignitors, though that sidewall is about as thin as I'd be comfortable with (much thinner than I'd like for riding in the rocks). Ardent and Aspen are more along the lines of what I like for sidewall thickness set up tubeless. I get less air loss with a Stan's sealant, Bontrager TLR rim, and whatever non-TLR tire, than I ever did with tubes.
 

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mightymouse said:
Can you comment more on the Bontrager rim experience? Did you use the Bontrager rim strip, or something different to go tubeless? Did you use a "Tubeless Ready" tire that has the bead, or just a regular tire with those rims? I'm having trouble finding light Tubeless Ready tires that have the traction I want, so any tire suggestions that have worked well with Bontrager rims is appreciated.
I used the bontrager rim strip, Im not sure what other people used in 03 since they just came out with the tlr rim strip last year
right now I have a regular tire( studded) it went on easy, aired up with no issues but Im not sure its coming off so easy, when I aired it up , I let out the air so I could pop the tire off on 1 side to add sealant but it wouldnt come off, cant get the bead loose. I was able to add sealant through the stem but I dont want to risk ruining the tire right now , so in the spring I'll try some more options. I had very good results with the Bontrager Jones acx tires but it depends on what your conditions are as far as traction. I'm also using 29" wheels so the tires are completely different. I would recommend useing tires with some type of extra wear layer ( they all have their own names, hardcase, armadillo, etc.) for tubeless as the sidewalls will be more prone to rip
 

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Ive just watched the stans comparison videos, where he compares his products to other manufactures

The other manufactures he tests on a DT rim with no spokes

His set-up he tests on Bontrager and his own rims, but both have spokes

Surely testing the tyres for burping the way he does is dubious???,

He should be testing like for like, a rim with no spokes in it is going to flex and compromise way easier?

Im pretty sold on using flow rims on my next setup but his tests are bordering at best on bit of slight of hand

http://www.notubes.com/moviecompar.php video to said dubious testing
 

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AM! said:
Ive just watched the stans comparison videos, where he compares his products to other manufactures

The other manufactures he tests on a DT rim with no spokes

His set-up he tests on Bontrager and his own rims, but both have spokes

Surely testing the tyres for burping the way he does is dubious???,

He should be testing like for like, a rim with no spokes in it is going to flex and compromise way easier?

Im pretty sold on using flow rims on my next setup but his tests are bordering at best on bit of slight of hand

http://www.notubes.com/moviecompar.php video to said dubious testing
Notice he does not test vs a split tube ghetto setup. Wonder what he is afraid of?
 

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AM! said:
Ive just watched the stans comparison videos, where he compares his products to other manufactures

The other manufactures he tests on a DT rim with no spokes

His set-up he tests on Bontrager and his own rims, but both have spokes

Surely testing the tyres for burping the way he does is dubious???,

He should be testing like for like, a rim with no spokes in it is going to flex and compromise way easier?

Im pretty sold on using flow rims on my next setup but his tests are bordering at best on bit of slight of hand

http://www.notubes.com/moviecompar.php video to said dubious testing
grabbing the tire with a glove or clamp isnt really flexing the rim so I dont think spokes would make any difference . He's just showing how the bead holds with his system vs. others. The only time I had burping issues had nothing to do with the rim flexing and was using both UST rims and UST tires
 

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twowheelsdown2002 said:
Notice he does not test vs a split tube ghetto setup. Wonder what he is afraid of?
well for starters he makes his own rim strip. and as far as using a ghetto setup , which combo? the choices are almost limitless
If he was truly trying to put one over why wouldn't he just find the worst combo he could and "prove " how crappy that system is?
his comparisons are only against other legitimate tubeless systems
 

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dan0 said:
well for starters he makes his own rim strip. and as far as using a ghetto setup , which combo? the choices are almost limitless
If he was truly trying to put one over why wouldn't he just find the worst combo he could and "prove " how crappy that system is?
his comparisons are only against other legitimate tubeless systems
I take it that when you say "legitimate" that you mean "commercially made". Seeing as I have been running split tube ghetto for nearly 3 years without a burp, I would have to say it is definitely "legitimate" although it is not "commercial".

I'm talking about a standard rim with a 20" split tube and standard tire with sealant.

Surely he would want to show how "superior" his system is to split tube ghetto, since there are a ton of people out there using it, and stealing away his business.

I think it is because split tube ghetto does everything his rim strips do, and in a similar fashion, so he can't make something look bad that is basically the same thing he is doing, except for not being reusable.

In fact I think that since a split tube is softer, and thinner, it allows the tire to compress it more, and set into the bead better than a Stan's strip, and it also bonds itself to the tire.

So again, I ask, why would he not want to convince people how bad split tube ghetto is in order to drum up more business? I think it is because he knows it is not true.:nono:
 
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