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I'm just messing with you
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Since I'm not using my Phoenix as my primary trail bike these days, I was considering other uses for it and came up with the idea to convert it to country and/or fire road duty. I started thinking I'd just slap a set of semi slicks on it, but ended up thinking that it'd work a lot better if I replaced the dodgy old Bomber fork with a rigid fork, and switched to a set of drop bars.

So far, I've come up with the following questions, and hoped I could get some help here, from those who have been down this road before.

Where would I come up with a fork to fit the (suspension adjusted) frame? (yep I know, get a Potts, and I will if you float me an interest-free loan). Can someone tell me the critical measurements I need to match to preserve the bike's handling and geometry?

I'll probably go with a Salsa Woodchipper bar, so I'll need a set of V-brake compatible levers and shifters for it. What's the hot setup there?

I'll need to swap the stem out for a high rise part, right? The current stem is a 120 x 7*, and the bar has little if any back sweep. Can I use that info to figure out the stem rise and reach I'll need?

I guess I should also ask if I'm nuts for considering this too. The bike works great in the woods, but will changing it around like this change it into a great "wandering around" style ride?

I'm looking forward to your input on this. Thanks in advance.
 

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Master of the Face Plant
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Yes you are nuts. How could you start a thread about a Phoenix without pics? Very wrong in my opinion.

Seriously though I can't help you with most of those questions but it you need a fork built with specific measurements Tom T. at TET cycles is excellent and not insanely priced. He did a fillet brazed fork for me for $170 and it is perfect.
 

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Harmonius Wrench
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8,254 Posts
Well, I can speak to the drop bar/stem part of your question. A Woodchipper has approximately 95mm of drop. You would probably want your drop extensions at the same level as your grips are currently, assuming you are happy with your hands being there now.

Okay, so measuring from the centerline of your handle bar straight up 95mm will give you the centerline where the clamp of your theoretical stem should be. Using this imaginary point in the air above your stem, you will get an idea of what rise angle you are looking at for a stem. It is quite likely you will be needing a custom stem.

Also, keeping in mind that the Woodchipper has a ton of extension, 13.6cm according to my measurement from the bottom of the bend in the drop to the end of the handlebar, your reach on the stem may need to be adjusted as well. (Of course, you can always hacksaw off the extension to taste as well)

It's also worth noting that the length of this extension may actually shorten your cockpit length rather than lengthen it, as is the current perception when going to a drop bar on an mtb. ;) At least some of the available positions would result in this.

As for brake levers, the Cane Creek/Tektro levers with the standard cable pull are the hot lever set up. (Assuming you are not going to use integrated brake/shift levers) Of course, any vinatge aero lever would also suffice with cantilever brakes. The Cane Creek/Tektro levers have a bit better shaped, longer blade that I find is a better fit on off road drop set ups.

Hope that helps! :)
 

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I'm just messing with you
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5,423 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
sandmangts said:
Yes you are nuts. How could you start a thread about a Phoenix without pics? Very wrong in my opinion.
It's been seen before, but OK


Tom T. at TET cycles is excellent and not insanely priced. He did a fillet brazed fork for me for $170 and it is perfect.
That is a good price. I see Steve P lists Type 2's on his site, but no pricing. Does anyone know? I'd expect $300 or so?

I've found Ultegra 8 barcon shifters - anyone know if those will work with an XT derailleur?
 

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Fan of 'Hams
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wv_bob said:
...I see Steve P lists Type 2's on his site, but no pricing. Does anyone know? I'd expect $300 or so?...
T2's are gone now (out of crowns). And they were $300 fifteen years ago... much more at the end (last year). :cryin:
 

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those are Rollercams...
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Salsa CroMoto and Kona Project 2 are both pretty nice, reasonably priced, suspension corrected and will preserve the "look" in the absence of a Type II. Tektro RL520 levers are what I use with discs and they'll work fine with vees as well, these are the same as Cane Creek Drop V levers at half the price. Good luck finding a Woodchipper right now although Web Cyclery shows them as available on their site.

You should be able to bring this in under $200 bucks, closer to $150 if you go with the Project 2.
 

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artistic...
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salsa cro moto fork but teh old ones made to emulate 80mm travel forks. or P2 Kona.
salsa 120/40º stem and their drop bar.
you could get a surly 1x1 fork as well...

either that or you sell me that frame and end your misery.
 

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Registered
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Guitar Ted said:
As for brake levers, the Cane Creek/Tektro levers with the standard cable pull are the hot lever set up. (Assuming you are not going to use integrated brake/shift levers) Of course, any vinatge aero lever would also suffice with cantilever brakes. The Cane Creek/Tektro levers have a bit better shaped, longer blade that I find is a better fit on off road drop set ups.

Hope that helps! :)
Sorry to jump on the thread here but I'm thinking of putting a Woodchipper on my Bianchi Axis CX bike. I have Shimano 105 integrated brake/shifters. Any comments on how they would work with the Woodchipper?

Eagerly awaiting your detailed Woodchipper review.
 

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I'm just messing with you
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
colker1 said:
either that or you sell me that frame and end your misery.
When you see my Phoenix for sale, you can be sure I'm either desperately unemployed, or dying. Doubtful you'd see it then, because I've promised first dibs to another guy already :)

Vlad said:
Leave it as is and make it your primary bike again--that's my advice.
I hear you, but right now I've got a new 29er to ride with a 100mm fork and disc brakes. It's hard to say no to that when it comes to trail riding. At least give me credit for thinking to do something sort of interesting with the Phoenix :)

WTB-rider said:
You should be able to bring this in under $200 bucks, closer to $150 if you go with the Project 2.
$279 delivered from universalcycles.com with the VIP10 coupon. Salsa fork, stem, bar, and tape, with Ultegra shifters, Tektro levers, and Jagwire cables. The Woodchipper isn't available in 31.8, and neither is the 40 degree stem, so that's kind of a bummer. But they're listed that way on Salsa's site, so they're coming.
 

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Harmonius Wrench
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jonno said:
Sorry to jump on the thread here but I'm thinking of putting a Woodchipper on my Bianchi Axis CX bike. I have Shimano 105 integrated brake/shifters. Any comments on how they would work with the Woodchipper?

Eagerly awaiting your detailed Woodchipper review.
That's the great thing about the Woodchipper design. The drop from top to extension is nearly vertical. STI users should get on swimmingly with these.
 

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Mtn Biker Machinist
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Salsa fork price?

I think making the Phoenix a drop bar bike is a great plan, seems like it will fit the look nicely, and make for a unique ride

You could get the Kona (410 or 440 A-C) or Salsa (425 or 445 A-C) fork and all the other stuff for less @ bikeman.com.

http://www.bikeman.com/store/merchant.mvc?

http://www.bikeman.com/store/merchant.mvc?

Be sure to measure from the front axle to the fork crown bearing race to get the right length fork. My Marzocchi
Z2 is 440mm axle to crown.

Unfortunately looks like the woodchipper is out of stock @ Bikeman, except in 25.4mm clamp 42cm width. Looks like the 31.8 are out of stock everywhere. Both 25.4 clamp are in stock @ Webcyclery (I just ordered one today! :thumbsup: ):

http://www.webcyclery.com/product.php?productid=18038&cat=329&page=1

I think you will have better luck finding the right stem in 25.4 clamp, the selection of high rise 31.8 clamp seems to be pretty limited.

In the end, shop where you like. I think you will be pleased with the drop bar conversion.
frog
 

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I'm just messing with you
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5,423 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
1 cog frog said:
I think making the Phoenix a drop bar bike is a great plan, seems like it will fit the look nicely, and make for a unique ride

You could get the Kona (410 or 440 A-C) or Salsa (425 or 445 A-C) fork and all the other stuff for less @ bikeman.com.
:thumbsup:

1 cog frog said:
Be sure to measure from the front axle to the fork crown bearing race to get the right length fork.
I'm going at it the other way, and matching up with the frame. I've looked at the on-line blurry catalogs and haven't seen the length mentioned. My Z2 is an old Bomber BAM, so I'm leaning toward the shorter fork as a replacement. Based on the length differentials, I figured the rigid to suspension translation was 410 to replace a 65mm susp fork, 425 for 80, and 440/445 for 100mm.

The 425mm choice is the Salsa, it weighs 80 g more, has a disc mount, and costs about $23 more. The 410 is a Kona, with no disc mount available in that size. The question I keep coming back to is, was my bike built for a 65mm or 80mm fork, and would 15mm make a difference?

1 cog frog said:
I think you will have better luck finding the right stem in 25.4 clamp, the selection of high rise 31.8 clamp seems to be pretty limited.
I also read a Woodchipper thread in the Salsa forum where Guitar Ted suggested the damping effect of the smaller dia bar and the different alloys used would be a good thing.
 

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artistic...
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wv_bob said:
:thumbsup:


I'm going at it the other way, and matching up with the frame. I've looked at the on-line blurry catalogs and haven't seen the length mentioned. My Z2 is an old Bomber BAM, so I'm leaning toward the shorter fork as a replacement. Based on the length differentials, I figured the rigid to suspension translation was 410 to replace a 65mm susp fork, 425 for 80, and 440/445 for 100mm.

The 425mm choice is the Salsa, it weighs 80 g more, has a disc mount, and costs about $23 more. The 410 is a Kona, with no disc mount available in that size. The question I keep coming back to is, was my bike built for a 65mm or 80mm fork, and would 15mm make a difference?


I also read a Woodchipper thread in the Salsa forum where Guitar Ted suggested the damping effect of the smaller dia bar and the different alloys used would be a good thing.
you want the shorter fork. 410. till 99/00 if i recall correctly most frames were built around the 63mm standard.
i would also get a pair of flat pedals. maybe old suntour xc comps.

PS: check the rake on those forks. Rake may affect handling more than 10mm in length.
 

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I'm just messing with you
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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
As best as I can tell from the blurry online catalog, the frame's built for 1-1/2" rake, or 38mm. The Salsa fork is advertising 41mm rake. I haven't found the rake for the P2 yet. The best I've been able to find so far is a retrobike thread saying it's either 1.54" or 1.74", depending on what Kona bike it came on. Nothing found for the aftermarket fork, so I posted in the Kona forum to see if I can get an answer there.

I just downloaded a neat CAD program (www.emachineshop.com) to figure out what stem length I need to maintain my bar height It's always easier for me to draw the angles than it is to remember how to do the math. From that, a 135x40 stem will raise the bar about 72mm and bring it back about 16mm as compared to the current 120x7 stem. That gets me close to the 95mm difference noted earlier by Guitar Ted.
 

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I'm just messing with you
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Since my previous post I revisited the Phoenix thread and found a magazine review from 94 that reports a 1.75" offset for the Type 2 fork. That's a bit more even than the Salsa. But they also complained about wheel flop and Mark Slate agreed it could the the increased offset.

What are the chances that the frame would've changed to accept more offset between 94 and 95? Slim to none?

I'm starting to get the feeling that the longer Salsa fork, with possibly even more offset than the Kona, would "chopper it out" too much. At the least, if the Kona turns out to have the same offset as the Salsa, the shorter length would work to mitigate the extra offset.
 

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those are Rollercams...
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wv_bob said:
$279 delivered from universalcycles.com with the VIP10 coupon. Salsa fork, stem, bar, and tape, with Ultegra shifters, Tektro levers, and Jagwire cables. The Woodchipper isn't available in 31.8, and neither is the 40 degree stem, so that's kind of a bummer. But they're listed that way on Salsa's site, so they're coming.
Sorry, thought you already had the shifters.
 
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