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Discussion starter · #1 ·
modular means they can be adapted for frames with different width BBs (and they actually make the axles for those - 73mm, 83mm, 100mm, 120mm - you name it)
much cheaper than RF, Hope or FSA too

these guys: https://www.ebay.com/sch/neutrinocomponents/m.html
now make this: https://neutrinocomponents.com/index.php?id_category=19&controller=category&id_lang=1
7-7.5K RUR (roughly 125 USD) for crank arms, axle, BB and BB tool
You can use other 30mm BBs too - as long as they're within width specifications for a given axle (see specs)
Plain old С-beam CNC milling - no deep pocket forging, not hollow, but they're still solid and they work

Ask them about availability, I was told the second batch is due in February

Not affiliated with the company in any way (besides using their chainring), just giving them props cause I feel like it
 
Discussion starter · #2 ·
more spindle widths available now
bought crank arms, spindle, BB and BB tool for my 83mm BSA frame for $160
in silver anodized finish to match the titanium frame
rather nice compared to SRAM's and FSA's offerings
 
Traditionally, CNCed cranks have been very problematic for MTB. Back in the 90s, the market was flooded for a few years with Carumba Double-barrels, Kookas and others, but many of the CNCed cranks failed. Forged and CNC-finished cranks tended to be much stronger and most stuff on the market today is some form of a forged crank, due to the higher strength. Even most of the low-end stuff from the bigger manufacturers is forged, then finished. I'd be skeptical to say the lease and I'd definitely ride a pair of SLX or Deore cranks long before straight CNC from billet. You say these "are solid" and "they work", but manufacturers forge the cranks these days for a reason, if they could get away making cheaper cranks by just billet CNC, they would.
 
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Discussion starter · #5 ·
it's not that cheap, just cheaper than brands that command more prestige

the billets are forged before they're machined so I think (a metallurgist might correct me) as far as material is concerned, there is no difference

what forging a shaped part does is save you CNC time
I suppose it pays off at certain production scale, but not for this manufacturer as they're only making hundreds of these, not tens of thousands

some boutique US brands CNC their hub shells for the same reason (and use that to justify their exorbitant prices :)
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
if they could get away making cheaper cranks by just billet CNC, they would.
machining from a single billet is not cheaper (although it does depend a great deal on the cost of labour, electricity and the particular machine - dunno what mill Neutirno uses but it probably doesn't cost half a million $$)
it's just that some brands like much higher profit margins than others

RRPs are not reflective of actual manufacturing costs at all
 
machining from a single billet is not cheaper
Sure it is, take reasonably crank-sized billets of aluminum and throw em in a CNC machine vs. forging, which requires much heavier equipment and molds/stamps, etc. Again, it's far simpler and cheaper to CNC cranks, but there's a reason why it's generally not done like that. I have no idea what you mean by "the billets are forged before they are CNCed". Forging aligns the grain with the shape of the structure, the shape of a crank arm is not a cube.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
There's simple math at work:
Forging press and dies cost big $$$
On the other hand, they allow you to decrease the time spent removing material, per single part. But at small scale production, the cost of this equipment outweighs the benefits greatly.
However, once you ramp up and start making tons of parts, it's becoming worth it.

Note how all the cheap parts (cranks, stems, chainrings) are forged and not even machined until a certain price point. Even those kid-sized square taper cranks that retail for under $10 in China - forged in 2 seconds, probably.
And then, you can check out SRAM's or RF's crank arm lineup yourself:
6K series alloy forged < 7K series alloy forged < 7K forged and machined < carbon
Same with SRAM and FSA's chainrings: the cheapest ones are just forged, no CNC milling.

So if you can't justify having your own forging equipment, you have the material supplier do the forging for you (buy billet auminium), but then you have to spend more time per part (and make fewer parts with each cutting tool) machining away extra material.

The choice of manufacturing process is a function of production scale AND target price point, not just the latter.
 
It's not math, but metallurgy. You need to study more before making statements that could affect others' safety. Please quit playing like you understand the manufacturing process when you clearly don't. Here's a primer:

There are 3 basic ways metal objects are shaped: cast, billet and forged.

  • Cast: molten aluminum is poured into the mold to form the overall shape
  • Billet: formed from a solid block of aluminum often called 'bar stock' by cutting away unwanted material (this is your CNC'd part)
  • Forged: Forged aluminum generally refers to material that is 'forged' into a specified shape. Forging requires "compressive forces." In other words it is "hammered" into forging dies to shape the aluminum.
Metallurgists agree that a forged piece of aluminum is stronger than cast or billet. The reason being, when the material is shaped under pressure, its 'grain' follows the same shape as the part. As a result, the product manufactured is stronger due to the continuous grain characteristics allowed by the forging process.

When you're talking about a crankarm that has to take a lot of force day in and day out, strength is kind of a big deal.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
How do you think bar stock is made?
Especially that meant for machining parts that are going to be subject to significant loads and should not be expected to break from fatigue
Cast?

It's rolled, and then tempered/aged cause it's used, among other things, to make stuff like aircraft parts and it has to meet certain strength requirements.

These were tested by DH riders, by the way, before being released. Don't think the manufacturer is clueless and never heard of FEA methods to calculate the required amount of material. Forging may provide a measurable advantage (how many percent exactly? probably single digits) in strength/stiffness but its economical feasibility depends on the scale of production (and size/shape of parts in some other industries). When forging can't be used for whatever reason, people just keep more material and it works.

My X0 DH crank this one is going to replace is probably likelier to break than this overbuilt one :) If I did DH and gravity, that is. And weighed 120kg. And had a preference for flat landings.
 
How do you think bar stock is made?
Especially that meant for machining parts that are going to be subject to significant loads and should not be expected to break from fatigue
Cast?

It's rolled, and then tempered/aged cause it's used, among other things, to make stuff like aircraft parts and it has to meet certain strength requirements.
We are not building an airplane here, which has all kinds of requirements for different parts, from forged, to CNCed to cast. Turbine blades are cast and formed from a single-crystal, which is incredibly strong (and expensive), but it's an exotic manufacturing technique based on the requirements of that part. I've watched other parts of engines at honeywell being CNCed, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. An aircraft isn't looking for the strongest part in every case, it's looking for what can be used for the loads and other data and meet cost and weight requirements.

Hey, I'm just pointing out that the mtb industry went through an entire period were a bunch of CNCed cranks were put on the market and the manufacturers figured out real fast that they should be forged, not CNCed. There were significant reasons for this and why forged is significantly better. I wouldn't buy CNCed cranks because the low end stuff from manufacturers like Shimano, Race Face, Truvativ, is forged.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Forging is not economically feasible for small scale manufacturers due to the expenses.
I think it's Paul Components or WI that CNC their hub shells for this exact reason (wth, one might ask, Novatec forges their $40 hubsets and you can't?), but I might remember incorrectly

The big manufacturers use forging primarily to reduce their costs because it starts making sense at their scale of production. Strength benefits are a secondary concern.
 
Forging is not economically feasible for small scale manufacturers due to the expenses.
I think it's Paul Components or WI that CNC their hub shells for this exact reason (wth, one might ask, Novatec forges their $40 hubsets and you can't?), but I might remember incorrectly

The big manufacturers use forging primarily to reduce their costs because it starts making sense at their scale of production. Strength benefits are a secondary concern.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
 
How do you think bar stock is made?
Especially that meant for machining parts that are going to be subject to significant loads and should not be expected to break from fatigue
Cast?
You didn't read my other post, obviously.

It's rolled, and then tempered/aged cause it's used, among other things, to make stuff like aircraft parts and it has to meet certain strength requirements.
It's called extrusion and it's not the same as being forged as the required force to increase strength and rigidity isn't there. You obviously just don't understand what that means.

These were tested by DH riders, by the way, before being released. Don't think the manufacturer is clueless and never heard of FEA methods to calculate the required amount of material. Forging may provide a measurable advantage (how many percent exactly? probably single digits) in strength/stiffness but its economical feasibility depends on the scale of production (and size/shape of parts in some other industries). When forging can't be used for whatever reason, people just keep more material and it works.
They said all these same things 20-ish years ago when CNC first came on the scene. Cranks still broke.

If you want to know how much stronger forged is vs. non-forged, don't guess. Go do some actual research. That'll end this conversation because you'll realize you're wrong.

My X0 DH crank this one is going to replace is probably likelier to break than this overbuilt one :) If I did DH and gravity, that is. And weighed 120kg. And had a preference for flat landings.
If SRAM's cranks had a habit of breaking we'd have heard about it by now. If you're overweight and can't land properly you should do some research on that as well. You'll thank me when you turn 15.

You have no idea what you're talking about.
Exactly.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Unless you can bring up numbers (or someone with the industry experience who has the numbers) to back up your argument, this is all speculation going in circles. Neither of us seem to have any relation to manufacturing to have firsthand experience with these processes and their benefits or drawbacks. I've just read/heard it somewhere that the main obstacle to use forging for a manufacturer is the cost of equipment, and I'm only going to write it once (ok, twice now).

I'm not even sure forging allows you to make lighter parts as long as the same alloy is used - Rotor's top crank is 3d+ which is all CNC and not 3DF which is forged first. What it does is save costs once a certain scale is reached, and that's obvious from any video showing the speed of that particular operaion. Forging removes extra material much faster that a CNC machine would, that's the main advantage.

And there's evidence of broken x0 Dh cranks (probably Descendants too) if you do a little search. In the race for weight reduction, that's an inevitable outcome - lighter bike parts are more popular than overbuilt ones in every segment. Not a significant failure rate, of course - SRAM aren't stupid to flirt with class suits - but one that's greater than 0%.
 
Good try, but when EVERY industry agrees how to make a metal harder, there's no argument or speculation. Keep writing and I'll keep making fun of you for your ignorance.
 
Marketing wank vs marketing wank. One side thinks weight savings while still being "strong enough" is better, and another side thinks stronger parts and value is better.

Product quality starts at the foundry, where the quality of the source material is determined, from smelting, to casting, to working, to shipping. All sorts of details that can be stressed: minimizing impurities, source of the material (bauxite, scrap, etc.), alloying components, climate control (temp, air quality, moisture control, etc), processing (homogenization, shaping, heat treating, aging, annealing, storage and shipping).

The material likely has seen some sort of heated compression work before it sees the CNC machine. As long as it has been relieved of internal stress, it makes little difference if it was machined from a solid blank cut from a bar of tempered aluminum or from a near net shape forging that was heat treated afterwards. The forging is a cost savings step. Forging doesn't harden the material like a temper would; it work hardens only the areas that are compressed. Ideally the material should be in a softer state before forging, either softened by heat, or in a non tempered form, which didn't go through aging or heat treating.

Then there's the quality of the machines and tooling. Tool sharpness, how tight the workpiece is held in place, spindle load, etc. If the workpiece is clamped too tight or you're cutting through at ridiculous rate, the metal can come out with poor tolerances due to the elasticity in the material. Lower grade material, such as secondary sources of material (scrap remelt), can cause extra wear and tear on the machines and tooling.

All sorts of costs are passed down to the consumer, from higher quality materials to various inefficiencies that cause production time of the part take longer. Inefficiencies can include logistics (too much time in transport and handling), excessive administration roles (management, marketing, legal, etc.), conservative CNC programming, overhead and other operating costs, recouping the cost of R&D and other up-front costs (buying CNC machines), accounting for mistakes, defects, warranties, and long term warehousing, lack of process optimization and quick problem solving experience, etc.

Then there's the hot rodding and weight weenie culture. It started with machine shops not having anything to build, and just starting to make stuff for their hobbies. The **** these guys do/say to sell their stuff... stiffer, stronger, lighter, in any color you want... how stiff? How strong? Even getting harder to find weights. Lower weight most likely means less stiff and less strong, but people reason that it's stiff and strong enough if it's not breaking or is being raced by some celeb with success. Colors don't even match that closely and fade over time. Innovation? Convenience/user friendliness? At what cost? Why do they not say that modular crank designs and DM rings come at a cost of stiffness?

I'm over this game. I say make 'em reasonably overbuilt for reliability, make 'em outta sustainable and abundant material, make 'em perform, and make 'em affordable. Forget your incremental improvement and minor optimizations. I'd rather be that cranky old guy than Mr. Full Kit.
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
asked the manufacturer:
- forging press time can be rented, you don't have to buy the thing
- die costs thousands of dollars and isn't worth it for small scale production (if you're looking at Neutrino's price point, that is, and not trying to sell a crankset for $300)
- 7075-T6 can't be cold forged and hardly benefits from hot forging because it's already tempered
- for this type alloy, forging would only save machining time and tools, giving no other benefits (which is what Hope does)
 
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