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Would you:

  • Try and fix the carbon frame and buy a shock out of your own $$

  • Take this to court and try at least to get a new frame and shock (ignore the hassle and stress)

  • Start a class action suit!

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Not true at all, cmon dude. If you are buying a new car and THEY suggest the change THEY are also responsible for letting you know that it will void the warranty and I do not know any dealerships that would make that suggestion on a brand new car. How about you call all of the Honda or Toyota dealers in your area and see if they will swap out the engine for a different one and no additional costs on a brand new vehicle. Bet you can’t find one.
An engine swap with no charge is a bizarre analogy. Dealers do mods all the time. I've bought a new vehicle and had it race prepped between when I paid for it and when I picked it up. I've had suspension installed that wasn't going to be covered by the manufacturers warranty. When you start looking for custom , performance options, that is going to be on you as a consumer.
 

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An engine swap with no charge is a bizarre analogy. Dealers do mods all the time. I've bought a new vehicle and had it race prepped between when I paid for it and when I picked it up. I've had suspension installed that wasn't going to be covered by the manufacturers warranty. When you start looking for custom , performance options, that is going to be on you as a consumer.
Did they tell you it would void the warranty? You are full of crap, yes you can change parts BUT they always tell you how it will affect the warranty especially when they push the upgrade on you. Hey let’s do this your car and void all warranties OK, then you respond , sounds great let’s remove the warranties what a great suggestion.
 

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change is good
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And you hold responsibility for accepting their recommendation, it's just a recommendation, a suggestion, not an order. I can recommend you drop out of college, that you go break into a bank, etc, in the end you are the one with the choice and power to do it or not. I'm not saying he bears full responsibility but some of it he does for sure. Only way I see the shop having 100% responsibility would be if they swapped the shock without his prior knowledge or consent
True. But if the shop wants to maintain its standing in the community, it should step up to the plate.


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True. But if the shop wants to maintain its standing in the community, it should step up to the plate.


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Completely agree, I'm just arguing the point that he is without any fault in this mess and that he would be wasting his time trying to get Fox or Specialized to do anything, shop is the best route. That's all.
 

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Did they tell you it would void the warranty? You are full of crap, yes you can change parts BUT they always tell you how it will affect the warranty especially when they push the upgrade on you. Hey let’s do this your car and void all warranties OK, then you respond , sounds great let’s remove the warranties what a great suggestion.
No. If someone wants to mod a $9000 bike, by putting a drastically different suspension system than the OEM, I would assume they knew what they were doing. Just like when I have flashed ECUs, changed wheels and suspension, removed lights and other required safety devices etc. no one has bothered to ask me if I realized I was voiding warranties and making it illegal for road use. This isn't like a kid trying to get a shop to bodge a DH fork on a $400 Hardrock.
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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Plenty of dealers will install **** that will improve performance, while reducing engine life. When you start requesting bespoke options, it's on you.
That's different than my experience with the auto dealer and service industry. They wouldn't even install an OEM oil pan on my honda because I didn't buy the parts through them. IME, they are extremely careful about liability. A non-dealer shop will often install performance stuff, no warranty implied of course, like the performance suspension I got installed on my BMW, where the shop didn't tighten one part down correctly and I had to replace one of the parts after the work was done. The BMW dealership would do the Dinan parts that they had an agreement with Dinan for, but not ACS or other reputable tuner parts. Again, IME, this is extremely limited and they are protecting their liability at all corners.
 

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RAKC
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Well this thread is bad news. So far my dhx2 has been ok.

Specialized was shipping one version of the stumpy with dhx2 (I bought mine separately)

But the big issue is the fact the forward mount of the shock doesn't rotate so I can see this being an issue. I was curious about it and thinking of going back to an air shock anyway.

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It's a good point. I still believe they should own up to it, a bike is supposed to be compatible with shocks of similar length (just like it's supposed to be compatible with different wheels).
That is not true and an assumption you made. I've always contacted the frame manufacturer and shock manufacturer when thinking about a new shock.
I though about a coil for my new Ranger, Revel said it wasn't a good idea and Cane Creek also told me it wouldn't work well.

As far as I know it's not just Specialized frames. From the reading I've done on here and other forums, generally speaking yoke style frames and coils are a no-no.

I was surprised when Ibis offered the Ripmo with a coil. Not sure how they solved it.
 

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Discussion Starter #68
Are you dealing with the owner of the shop? Have you called Specialized directly?

Has the shop offered any type of crash replacement of the damaged parts?

Sounds a little like the LBS is blowing you off.
That's a good suggestion. I should call Specialized and Fox directly and try to persuade them, and have the LBS step up.
 

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Discussion Starter #69 (Edited)
CORRECTION to this post
I was corrected that the photos below might be of a Super Delux coil (that's no longer offered , IDK if for the same reason). I thought these photos were of DHX2 but it doesn't look like it. I'll keep this post not remove it but it seems they're backing away from offering any coil
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The main page: (I've attached the full page)
1917432


Now if you click on "Shop now" - voila! They changed that image to air, and now only offer Kenevo in air configs.
1917433
 

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Wrong, That coil shock in the picture is a Super Deluxe and not a DHX2, 1/2" shaft vs 9mm shaft plus it's a different bike than yours, just because they offer a coil on some bikes doesn't mean that every bike can fit one, what matters is that the model YOU bought is not offered with a coil shock so Specialized doesn't owe you anything, period, Fox replaced the broken shock so they are in the clear also. Right now as I see it, it's between you and the shop that sold you the bike with the shock they recommended and I'm not saying you need to eat all the cost but you are wasting your time trying to go after Specialized or Fox, concentrate on the LBS side.
 

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ALL I don't think some folks realize the magnitude of the problem: Specialized DOES offer a yoke + coil stock combo with Fox DHX2 (really the only compatible coil shock from Fox).
This problem affects ALL their bikes - including the ones that came with a spec'ed with coil shock.
Here's a screenshot of their Kenevo website main page - you can clearly see the DHX2 yes? Just go to their website (I've added full size attachment)
Below is evidence they did offer Kenevo with DHX2 Coil (and who knows what they're doing with current owners) and now they're in the process of covering up.
I'm still not convinced I should just suck it up and eat all the damage and losses myself, just because I chose a Levo. Had I actually called at that time I'm sure they would've told me it's compatible - as I mentioned, there are videos of their team riders riding Levo with coil.

The main page: (I've attached the full page)
View attachment 1917432

Now if you click on "Shop now" - voila! They changed that image to air, and now only offer Kenevo in air configs.
View attachment 1917433

Attached is the main Kenevo page, still sporting that wonderful DHX2 shock that will eventually break under the unlucky rider

Unless you own a coil-equipped Kenevo sourced stock from a Specialized dealer, you’re probably still stuck up a creek without a paddle.

Because you would need to prove in court that:

1) Your aftermarket-sourced DHX2 is identical to the Specialized-sourced coil shock on the Kenevo in design, materials, etc. (i.e. you would need to establish that Specialized did not source a custom shock, for which even the smallest difference can be argued to deal with side loads better)...

2) That the frame design and implementation between the coil-equipped Kenevo and your Levo are identical (i.e. it obviously isn’t for the most obvious reason being that there does not exist a carbon Kenevo; carbon and aluminum have different flex patterns that can be argued to contribute differentially to stresses on the shock; you would need to hire an expert who would probably need to conduct testing with different versions to assert to the court that the differences are insignificant in terms of the issue in question), and most importantly...

3) That Specialized specifically deems the DHX2 as an acceptable replacement for the stock air shock on your Levo. Because it could very well be argued that an increased failure/warranty rate is built into the Kenevo pricing... but is not for the Levo. Which is why Specialized does not explicitly allow it for the Levo, but can equip it on the Kenevo.

I feel for your predicament. But in reality the responsibility lies with your LBS, who offered you a not-specifically-approved-by-the-OEM equipment modification based on implied fitness they semi-reasonably-but-ultimately-disastrously mis-ascertained and conveyed... to the end of making money on an up-sell.

Edit: apparently #1 fails on its face, as Blkdoutindustries notes that the coil shock on the Kenevo isn’t even a DHX2.
 

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Discussion Starter #72
Wrong, That coil shock in the picture is a Super Deluxe and not a DHX2, 1/2" shaft vs 9mm shaft plus it's a different bike than yours, just because they offer a coil on some bikes doesn't mean that every bike can fit one, what matters is that the model YOU bought is not offered with a coil shock so Specialized doesn't owe you anything, period, Fox replaced the broken shock so they are in the clear also. Right now as I see it is between you and the shop that sold you the bike with the shock they recommended.
Ok I can't tell but it looked like a DHX2 , you're probably right. Still for some reason it's no longer available with a coil option
 

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Ok I can't tell but it looked like a DHX2 , you're probably right. Still for some reason it's no longer available with a coil option
Maybe they realized it could fail, you are right, and if you are one of the owners that has that combination and it fails then you would have a legitimate claim against Specialized but since your frame never came with a coil and Specialized never said it was ok to run they are free from all liability. Pretty much everyone here agrees with me that you should be trying to work it out with the shop just like @DtEW said above.

Again, just to make it clear, I'm not against you or anything like that, I hope you don't have to pay much to get it resolved but going after them it's going to cost money and you are certain to lose as explained above. On the other hand the LBS has a lot to lose here and that's why they keep telling you to try to get it worked out with Fox or Specialized, they know that if you take them to court they are going to lose easily imo
 

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Discussion Starter #74
Maybe they realized it could fail, you are right, and if you are one of the owners that has that combination and it fails then you would have a legitimate claim against Specialized but since your frame never came with a coil and Specialized never said it was ok to run they are free from all liability. Pretty much everyone here agrees with me that you should be trying to work it out with the shop just like @DtEW said above.
Well, so far opinions are mixed but most ppl leaning towards either pushing on LBS to do more to make this right, and if that doesn't work I should just "suck it up". Some still believe fault lies on vendors, opinions seem mixed between Fox and Spesh. There's still a difference in my mind between buying a bike and working on it in my garage, versus what I did: buying everything new at the shop and having them deliver the bike with the shock installed.

I do think Spesh isn't "clean" here: their bike design is obviously flawed with so much pressure that it breaks a downhill coil shock. Also not putting out some notice, given that Fox is one of the primary shock sellers. The DHX2 seems to work on most every other manufacturers (to the best of my knowledge) so there must be something off here.

For those that just think I should "suck it up": I'm sure they'd think similarly had those $9k come out of their own pockets :)
The funny thing is if I buy a $500 bike on Walmart they'll provide much better warranty and customer care than all the aforementioned parties involved here combined.
 

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Well, so far opinions are mixed but most ppl leaning towards either pushing on LBS to do more to make this right, and if that doesn't work I should just "suck it up". Some still believe fault lies on vendors, opinions seem mixed between Fox and Spesh. There's still a difference in my mind between buying a bike and working on it in my garage, versus what I did: buying everything new at the shop and having them deliver the bike with the shock installed.

I do think Spesh isn't "clean" here: their bike design is obviously flawed with so much pressure that it breaks a downhill coil shock. Also not putting out some notice, given that Fox is one of the primary shock sellers. The DHX2 seems to work on most every other manufacturers (to the best of my knowledge) so there must be something off here.

For those that just think I should "suck it up": I'm sure they'd think similarly had those $9k come out of their own pockets :)
The funny thing is if I buy a $500 bike on Walmart they'll provide much better warranty and customer care than all the aforementioned parties involved here combined.
#1 See bold quote, that's why you and shop are responsible. Specialized and Fox had nothing to do with that.

#2 I agree their design might put more side loads on some shocks but unless you know the exact rate of failure you are guessing it's a flawed design.

#3 I'm sure if your failure happened with oem shock Specialized would've taken care of you by now so you are comparing apples to oranges with your warranty example
 

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I do think Spesh isn't "clean" here: their bike design is obviously flawed with so much pressure that it breaks a downhill coil shock. Also not putting out some notice, given that Fox is one of the primary shock sellers. The DHX2 seems to work on most every other manufacturers (to the best of my knowledge) so there must be something off here.
I'm pretty sure Cane Creek used to have a compatibility checker on their website for the shocks. I can't find it now. Plenty of Specialized bikes running coils with the yoke. I have a TTX on mine. There certainly were reports of CC DBs snapping shafts early on, but they seem to have died out. What and where is the original shock that came with the bike? Can you take a picture of the damage to the frame?
 

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furker
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This comes down to a question of contract law and liability law. (TL: DR is that they've all covered themselves legally)

Fox warranty says "In the event that your fork/shock breaks or malfunctions, FOX Racing Shox shall have no liability beyond the repair or replacement of your fork/shock ". Fox did everything they are contractually obligated to do, when they sent you the repaired shock.

Specialized warranty says "suspension parts are not included in the definition of frame or frameset".

Even a failure of the original air shock would not have been covered under the Specialized frame warranty. Any shock would be a "third-party manufacturer for non-Specialized components, such as drivetrain, brakes, or suspension parts". Any shock would fall under "Third-party components are not covered by this Warranty.". Specialized is not contractually obligated to cover repairs to the frame if either the original shock or any replacement shock fails.

Suing the LBS for violating the sales contract, you would have to show that they knew when they sold it, that the shock they sold you would fail on that frame. But the warning from Specialized and Fox didn't come out until after the sale was complete, so that actually works AGAINST your case. The LBS would be able to prove they were not informed of the incompatibility until after the sale was complete, by showing the date on the warning was after the sales contract was signed. It would be hard to prove they violated the sales contract for not warranty covering something the bike maker and the shock maker don't cover under warranty.

This section of the Specialized warranty is the only contractual language that covers this situation:

"What are my options if the damage is not covered by this Warranty?"
"As riders we understand accidents happen. Even if the damage is not covered by this Warranty, there may be a program available in your local market to purchase a new replacement Product at a reduced price. You should inquire with your Authorized Specialized Retailer and/or with Specialized directly whether such program is in place and whether you are eligible. "

Anything else Fox, Specialized or the LBS does for you would be good faith customer satisfaction stuff, and not strictly required under the warranty contract or sales contract.

Personally I would go in on a day the bike shop isn't busy and ask nicely about the damage replacement program for the frame, and ask if they still have the OEM take-off shock they can trade with the Fox to put back in a damage replacement frame. Then I'd ask the LBS nicely if they would split the cost with you, since everybody knows this is a bad situation with everyone finding out too late that it was a bad combination. If that didn't work I would get a repair estimate and try to find the OEM shock used, and sell the Fox shock on ebay.

Then if I were you, I'd go back to my dentist's office and bill out some crowns and some root canals to pay for my $9k dentist bike repairs. (JOKES!!!) Seriously though, hopefully something will work out, but I'm not sure there is a free fix for this.
 

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furker
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I do think Spesh isn't "clean" here: their bike design is obviously flawed with so much pressure that it breaks a downhill coil shock.
If the frame is also breaking the OEM shock that Specialized sells with the bike, then the bike design would obviously be to blame. It is not so a design flaw with the frame if the OEM shock works just fine.
 

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That coil shock in the picture is a Super Deluxe and not a DHX2, 1/2" shaft vs 9mm shaft
It seems like all versions of coil shocks that came with the "Sidearm"/2nd-gen Kenevo (that is, the RockShox Super Deluxe Coil Select and the Marzocchi Bomber CR) from Specialized have been equipped with 1/2" shafts.


Perhaps the potential shock side-loading of a given suspension system and the side-loading tolerance of a given shock are things the industry/MTB-media need to do a better job educating lay consumers (and the lay masquerading as shop wrenches) about... and make the requirements/abilities more obvious. For example, I was also trying to find the shaft diameter of the Öhlins TTX22M that was equipped on the first-gen Kenevo and some "Sidearm"/2nd-gen Stumpys... but to no avail. It's strange that something as simple as this dimensional spec is not made more readily available. (Not to say shaft diameter is necessarily a be-all-end-all indicator of side-loading tolerance... but at least suggestive.)

Even in the absence of industry cooperation (I mean, nobody wants to admit that their suspension design requires a heavier-duty shock construction), more education about this issue from the MTB media might help lay consumers (and again, the lay masquerading as shop wrenches) think twice before throwing a thin-shafted shock onto a suspension design that has apparently always come from the factory equipped with burlier shafts.

I mean, you can install a Rock Shox SID fork onto a Kenevo... but I don't think anybody would think that to be a good idea nor expect the resulting machine to live up to the duty level the Kenevo ad-copy suggests. And that's because we consumers have been well-educated about stanchion diameter as a proxy for a fork's duty level.
 
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