new Ciclon vs new 5-spot
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So, I haven't ridden them back to back. And it isn't a Ciclon I've ridden, it's my Chucho. And the riding I did on the 5-spot was last year. But I'll give you my feelings about the two bikes. The Chucho is the same as the Ciclon, just with a 29er front wheel. Rear ends are all the same.
When I went to Interbike last year I was looking to ride the 3 DW link bikes, Pivot, IBIS, and Turner. And really, I wanted to like the Turner the most as I sell Ventana's already, and Turners are obviously talked about in the same breath as Ventana. US made. killer trail bikes, etc etc.
Pivot Mach5 was the most Ventana like. Rock solid. Climbed the technical stuff good. Back end felt stiff in the corners. The suspension really felt a lot like my version 1 Chucho I was riding at the time. But it was heavy, and felt that way when you pedaled it. Just was not an 'exciting' bike to ride in the least.
IBIS Mojo was the most fun bike of the three. Climbed ok, although when pushing the pedals hard on the climbs it got mushy side to side enough that I could feel it. Only in those instances where you have superb traction and your loading the bike hard to make it up and over a rock face could you feel that push and twist. It was a fun bike to downhill on. Just think about going here or there and the bike instantly got there. So easy to jump from one line to the other. Bike was light feeling. Downhill turns where you're hard on the brakes, like into a decreasing radius turn, the front end would push a good amount do to front triangle flex. At speed this bike was a blast to descend on for short distances, but I imagine on a longer downhill it would get a little tiring having to pay so close attention to the bike. Is not a 'planted' riding bike at all.
The Turner...what can I say. I was disappointed. It climbed like a hardtail, seriously. Like spinning the tire over ledges and on the loose stuff. Definetly not a strong technical climber(neither am I which is why I am so critical of bikes here). When you were on the gas hard the suspension did not move. And when you did have enough traction, and proper body position, to load the rear end while climbing up something in the small ring, when that suspension did activate you felt it in the pedals. Annoying to say the least. I have enough problems getting my xxl frame up a hill, I don't need the pedals giving me the feeling of instantly stopping. Once you were over the hump and getting into the downhill the bike just seemed to wallow down into deeper part fo the travel quickly. Not a great feeling. I played with settings a bunch and went for an extended ride trying to get it to a point where I'd like it. I really wanted ot like this bike! Went back to the tent and discussed things and had the tech set it up. But to no avail. It still felt like Doctor Jekyl and Mr. Hyde.
So, I carry IBIS and Ventana now is the long and the short of it.
I do have to say that the latteral stiffness of the 5 Spot is very good. This, I was impressed with. The rest of the bike, not so much.
The new Ciclon/Chucho with the upgraded pivot location, oversized seat tube/downtube/hydro top tube/tapered ehad tube, has taken a pretty large step forward over the older designs. The bike stays up in it's travel a lot more. Can't say it 'feels' as 'plush' as the version 1.0, but then again it not sitting in the mid stroke is a great improvement for pedaling efficiency. And with it staying higher in the travel I feel that it steps up over ledges climbing much more easily. Where version 1.0 felt like it hit into the travel a bit deep before the wheel hauled up and over the ledge, the new pivot location seems to initiate into the travel, then the back wheel follows up it quicker, keeping the bike higher in the travel and loosing less momentum.
The rear end lateral stiffness has also increaded. Amazing, but true. On my last ride there was a tough middle ring climb section up over some rocks as you were going between a few trees. I had the bike loaded up in funny directions while having to be on the pedals hard. It was amazing how much that back tire was grabing and twisting all the while I could feel that energy being transfered through the front triangle almost into the bars. It's one stiff frame! There was no defelction going on at all. I was making that bike do something that should have had it flexing a good amount, but no way. That was the first time I really thought, 'Wow, this bike IS stiffer." It may be hard to convey in words, but I could feel the front and rear triangles working solidly in a straight line as I was honking the bars to get up and over and through and the rear tire grabing and biting sideways this way and that. It was kinda cool!
I do have to say, and it may just be a set-up thing, I don't think the version 2.0 is as plush. I mean I get done with a ride and think, "Hrmm, maybe I should let a bit of air out of the rear to soften it up", but then I look and the travel ring is near the bottom of the shock stancion, so I guess not. Not that it's rough and bouncing me off line by any means, just not as supple as version 1.0 felt.
The new bike feels faster all around though. More efficiant. And stiffer!
Anyway, there's all I have to say on that topic for now.
When I went to Interbike last year I was looking to ride the 3 DW link bikes, Pivot, IBIS, and Turner. And really, I wanted to like the Turner the most as I sell Ventana's already, and Turners are obviously talked about in the same breath as Ventana. US made. killer trail bikes, etc etc.
Pivot Mach5 was the most Ventana like. Rock solid. Climbed the technical stuff good. Back end felt stiff in the corners. The suspension really felt a lot like my version 1 Chucho I was riding at the time. But it was heavy, and felt that way when you pedaled it. Just was not an 'exciting' bike to ride in the least.
IBIS Mojo was the most fun bike of the three. Climbed ok, although when pushing the pedals hard on the climbs it got mushy side to side enough that I could feel it. Only in those instances where you have superb traction and your loading the bike hard to make it up and over a rock face could you feel that push and twist. It was a fun bike to downhill on. Just think about going here or there and the bike instantly got there. So easy to jump from one line to the other. Bike was light feeling. Downhill turns where you're hard on the brakes, like into a decreasing radius turn, the front end would push a good amount do to front triangle flex. At speed this bike was a blast to descend on for short distances, but I imagine on a longer downhill it would get a little tiring having to pay so close attention to the bike. Is not a 'planted' riding bike at all.
The Turner...what can I say. I was disappointed. It climbed like a hardtail, seriously. Like spinning the tire over ledges and on the loose stuff. Definetly not a strong technical climber(neither am I which is why I am so critical of bikes here). When you were on the gas hard the suspension did not move. And when you did have enough traction, and proper body position, to load the rear end while climbing up something in the small ring, when that suspension did activate you felt it in the pedals. Annoying to say the least. I have enough problems getting my xxl frame up a hill, I don't need the pedals giving me the feeling of instantly stopping. Once you were over the hump and getting into the downhill the bike just seemed to wallow down into deeper part fo the travel quickly. Not a great feeling. I played with settings a bunch and went for an extended ride trying to get it to a point where I'd like it. I really wanted ot like this bike! Went back to the tent and discussed things and had the tech set it up. But to no avail. It still felt like Doctor Jekyl and Mr. Hyde.
So, I carry IBIS and Ventana now is the long and the short of it.
I do have to say that the latteral stiffness of the 5 Spot is very good. This, I was impressed with. The rest of the bike, not so much.
The new Ciclon/Chucho with the upgraded pivot location, oversized seat tube/downtube/hydro top tube/tapered ehad tube, has taken a pretty large step forward over the older designs. The bike stays up in it's travel a lot more. Can't say it 'feels' as 'plush' as the version 1.0, but then again it not sitting in the mid stroke is a great improvement for pedaling efficiency. And with it staying higher in the travel I feel that it steps up over ledges climbing much more easily. Where version 1.0 felt like it hit into the travel a bit deep before the wheel hauled up and over the ledge, the new pivot location seems to initiate into the travel, then the back wheel follows up it quicker, keeping the bike higher in the travel and loosing less momentum.
The rear end lateral stiffness has also increaded. Amazing, but true. On my last ride there was a tough middle ring climb section up over some rocks as you were going between a few trees. I had the bike loaded up in funny directions while having to be on the pedals hard. It was amazing how much that back tire was grabing and twisting all the while I could feel that energy being transfered through the front triangle almost into the bars. It's one stiff frame! There was no defelction going on at all. I was making that bike do something that should have had it flexing a good amount, but no way. That was the first time I really thought, 'Wow, this bike IS stiffer." It may be hard to convey in words, but I could feel the front and rear triangles working solidly in a straight line as I was honking the bars to get up and over and through and the rear tire grabing and biting sideways this way and that. It was kinda cool!
I do have to say, and it may just be a set-up thing, I don't think the version 2.0 is as plush. I mean I get done with a ride and think, "Hrmm, maybe I should let a bit of air out of the rear to soften it up", but then I look and the travel ring is near the bottom of the shock stancion, so I guess not. Not that it's rough and bouncing me off line by any means, just not as supple as version 1.0 felt.
The new bike feels faster all around though. More efficiant. And stiffer!
Anyway, there's all I have to say on that topic for now.
With all due respect something seems a tad amiss here.....my experience with owning & riding a DW Turner for nearly three seasons seems a bit different ! How I have my bike set up with about 30 % sag and running the Monarch RT3 or Fox RP23 in the open position most of the time....I find the DW suspension is both plush yet very efficient when pedaling uphill or over stuff and not hardtail like ( I've never ridden or owned a FS bike yet that felt like a hardtail at least how I set mine up) ! 
I've climbed timber steps , over ledges , rocky & rooty sections , and very rutty stuff without feeling any noticeable pedal feedback or offending tire spin due to poor suspension action ! This is my experience with the DW link suspension and I like it just as much as my Ventana and Knolly that have there own riding characteristics !
The new pivot placement sounds like a winner...next ! TIG.
I've climbed timber steps , over ledges , rocky & rooty sections , and very rutty stuff without feeling any noticeable pedal feedback or offending tire spin due to poor suspension action ! This is my experience with the DW link suspension and I like it just as much as my Ventana and Knolly that have there own riding characteristics ! The new pivot placement sounds like a winner...next !
TIG.Read the part about how he's not a Turner dealer and it'll all make sense.
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You can also read this as Myke went to Interbike looking to pick up a brand to compliment his shops offerings....Turner, Ibis or Pivot.Read the part about how he's not a Turner dealer and it'll all make sense.
Along the same topic, it appears to me that the new Ventana lower pivot location is very close to the HL Turners so since the Homers still rave about the old Turners then the new Ventana frames should be Homer approved. :thumbsup::thumbsup:
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Yeah, hey, I have no quails with Turner bikes. And I went to IBike with the intent on really wanting to carry Turners. After three hours on the bike, and having a tech under their tent set the bike up after I spent over an hour riding and fiddling with it, I still wasn't that pleased with it.
I've been riding full suspension bikes from their inception, well since the early 90's at least. Wrenching on them, getting to know how/why they work. I have a pretty good amount of knowledge on how to set bikes up to get them to perform. After a bit over an hour of riding and adjusting, I was baffled that the bike was actually behaving as it was meant to be. That's the reason I went back to the tent and had the tech walk through what they thought should be the butter spot in the set up for their bike, for me, given the feedback that I gave them.
Opinions are like #$^[email protected]%^$, everyone's got them. So take my opinion as just that, an opinion.
I've been riding full suspension bikes from their inception, well since the early 90's at least. Wrenching on them, getting to know how/why they work. I have a pretty good amount of knowledge on how to set bikes up to get them to perform. After a bit over an hour of riding and adjusting, I was baffled that the bike was actually behaving as it was meant to be. That's the reason I went back to the tent and had the tech walk through what they thought should be the butter spot in the set up for their bike, for me, given the feedback that I gave them.
Opinions are like #$^[email protected]%^$, everyone's got them. So take my opinion as just that, an opinion.
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I feel the same way as internal14 does. The Turner DW has too much pedal kickback. Maybe the majority of the Turner riders don't spend much time in the granny gear, but that's where you notice it the most. I had a Turner 5Spot DW for a year and sold it for an RFX. Way better bike for me, it's just heavy. I also got an El Rey and I agree too that the 1st gen Ventana's are very plush. Normally I don't use propedal much, but on the El Rey it's on almost all the time.
One time I was riding up a 20% tarmac road in the granny gear and I almost got seasick with the Turner bobbing soo much. I know this type of riding is not what most people do with 5Spots, but hey, it was on route so I had to negotiate it.
I have to say, in the middle and on the large ring, the DW suspension of the 5Spot was very good. It's just that I need to use the granny often and it doesn't shine there.
One time I was riding up a 20% tarmac road in the granny gear and I almost got seasick with the Turner bobbing soo much. I know this type of riding is not what most people do with 5Spots, but hey, it was on route so I had to negotiate it.
I have to say, in the middle and on the large ring, the DW suspension of the 5Spot was very good. It's just that I need to use the granny often and it doesn't shine there.
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I test rode an old Iron Horse and had the same problem with peddle feedback in the granny. Drove me nuts till I realized what it was. I was hopping that the newer dw bikes did not behave like that -especially since I am just about to order one!
:eekster:
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Ride before you buy if you're worried about pedal feedback in the granny ring grinding along.I test rode an old Iron Horse and had the same problem with peddle feedback in the granny. Drove me nuts till I realized what it was. I was hopping that the newer dw bikes did not behave like that -especially since I am just about to order one!
I haven't ridden DW, so I'm curious as to whether you all feel pedal feedback or bob while pedaling on the Spot. My understanding and experience with single-pivots is that you tend to get one or the other: the lower pivots suffer from bob, but little feedback, while the higher pivots suffer from feedback, but little bob.
The old Cove G-Spot was a great example of a super-low pivot, as the pivot was concentric with the bb. It didn't have any feedback, but it bobbed like crazy. You basically needed a lockout on the rear shock to climb with it. My old Ventana Chamuco was the opposite: it didn't bob much, but you could feel the chain pulling back on the cranks when pedaling the granny in rough terrain.
So what's up with the dw Spot?
The old Cove G-Spot was a great example of a super-low pivot, as the pivot was concentric with the bb. It didn't have any feedback, but it bobbed like crazy. You basically needed a lockout on the rear shock to climb with it. My old Ventana Chamuco was the opposite: it didn't bob much, but you could feel the chain pulling back on the cranks when pedaling the granny in rough terrain.
So what's up with the dw Spot?
I'm a little curious of this myself......I've ridden my DW Turner for three seasons and I'm still not noticing the performance robbing properties mentioned !
In my experience it is the most efficient pedaling FS bike I've owned.....is it perfect heck no ,but then again I can get any FS bike to bob in granny regardless of design. I have not noticed the pedal feedback thingy mentioned.....more so in single pivots or older VPP designs ! I think the new pivot placement on the Ventana frames coming out is interesting and would love to try one ! Different strokes for different folks I guess ! TIG.
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I think sometimes folks confuse a "plush" feel with increased performance. I have (had) both an 08 Ciclon and 10 Spot. The bikes have very different leverage ratios leading to different albeit sometimes subtle differences in handling and ride characteristics. I'm not very good at articulating the differences but here's a few things that I noticed.
The Ciclon was a capable climber but with the Fox RP23 at 30-33% sag it would suffer from mid stroke wallow. This leads to some bob and frequent pedal strikes. Thus, the need for propedal. Getting the shock pushed and eventually pushing a Van R coil helped tremendously. In contrast, the spot has a firmer feel and rides higher in it's travel. The antisquat properties are such that shock platform is not needed. Yes, there is some pedal feedback in the granny but you've got to be standing and mashing to feel it. It also seems like a bit more power is going to the wheels if that makes sense.
The spot rails corners and also eats up high speed chatter better. It definitely is a firmer ride and does not feel as plush as the Ciclon when pointing it downhill. I'd describe it as feeling more nimble with the wheels glued to the ground. The bike simply tracks better through the chunk. In terms of rear triangle stiffness I'd have to give the edge to Ventana with the double quad bearings but the Spot is stiff enough.
I'm sure the improvements for 2012 for both bikes will improve ride qualities but that's my 2cents from the older models. The change in pivot location after how many years(?) on the Ciclon is interesting. You can't go wrong with either. Both great small USA companies with excellent customer support.
edit to add. The Ciclon was stolen last summer and has not been recovered. Give a holler if you see a deal on an Army Green Ciclon with Hadley hubs for a deal that is too good to be true.
The Ciclon was a capable climber but with the Fox RP23 at 30-33% sag it would suffer from mid stroke wallow. This leads to some bob and frequent pedal strikes. Thus, the need for propedal. Getting the shock pushed and eventually pushing a Van R coil helped tremendously. In contrast, the spot has a firmer feel and rides higher in it's travel. The antisquat properties are such that shock platform is not needed. Yes, there is some pedal feedback in the granny but you've got to be standing and mashing to feel it. It also seems like a bit more power is going to the wheels if that makes sense.
The spot rails corners and also eats up high speed chatter better. It definitely is a firmer ride and does not feel as plush as the Ciclon when pointing it downhill. I'd describe it as feeling more nimble with the wheels glued to the ground. The bike simply tracks better through the chunk. In terms of rear triangle stiffness I'd have to give the edge to Ventana with the double quad bearings but the Spot is stiff enough.
I'm sure the improvements for 2012 for both bikes will improve ride qualities but that's my 2cents from the older models. The change in pivot location after how many years(?) on the Ciclon is interesting. You can't go wrong with either. Both great small USA companies with excellent customer support.
edit to add. The Ciclon was stolen last summer and has not been recovered. Give a holler if you see a deal on an Army Green Ciclon with Hadley hubs for a deal that is too good to be true.
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Anything constructive to add?
As for other dw link bikes I found the Pivot Mach 5 to be especially firm. Perhaps even bordering on harsh. More like an xc race bike.
I rode a 08 Ciclon with 5' rockers for a 1.5 yrs then moved to a DW Spot and have ridden it for 2.5+ yrs. Here are some of my thoughts which still ring pretty true...
Demo'd DW 5 Spot at Vail Lake
Some quick notes, for me once I got my 09 Spot built up using all the parts from my Ciclon and rode it on my local trails it felt more plush and deeper in medium chunky choppy terrain. Having the shock valved very light made a noticeable difference in bump compliance and not having any pedal bob (unless standing and mashing hard) was a huge plus. However that light valving is a tricky thing to setup - I have a Pushed RP23 that's shimmed so that it remains progressive and doesn't wallow, but is still very plush. The area of discourse is that it's harder to pop off the ground and manual. The feel is more grounded, tracking the terrain. The Spot was more stable in steep low speed terrain too. The new V's are probably improved in this area though. My 08 Ciclon felt a little tall and tippy at times. I'd say the Ventana suspension is more playful and easier to manual and bunnyhop - and you feel the terrain under you when climbing chunky/techy terrain so there's a positive contact feel which is good. The numb feeling of the DW took me some time to adjust to on techy climbs. On the V you definitely feel the square edges more and it stiffens under braking. The DW erases the square edges better, doesn't brake jack or stiffen under braking. Something I loved about the Ventana was how solid the frame felt. The front triangle dampened the trail at speed very nicely and that provided added confidence on the trail. The Spot railed corners better and felt more precise. I was hitting turns tighter and faster right away.
I now have a 2011 Spot that's insane. I have a Fox 36 on it with a flush lower HS cup. The geometry is so dialled in. 66.5* HA, 13.7" BB and 44.8" WB on a large. The new Ventanas are very tempting though - I could honestly say I would be happy and content on the Spot or a 'custom' Ciclon.
View attachment 643749
View attachment 643750
edited: added photos and my ciclon was an 08 not an 09.
Demo'd DW 5 Spot at Vail Lake
Some quick notes, for me once I got my 09 Spot built up using all the parts from my Ciclon and rode it on my local trails it felt more plush and deeper in medium chunky choppy terrain. Having the shock valved very light made a noticeable difference in bump compliance and not having any pedal bob (unless standing and mashing hard) was a huge plus. However that light valving is a tricky thing to setup - I have a Pushed RP23 that's shimmed so that it remains progressive and doesn't wallow, but is still very plush. The area of discourse is that it's harder to pop off the ground and manual. The feel is more grounded, tracking the terrain. The Spot was more stable in steep low speed terrain too. The new V's are probably improved in this area though. My 08 Ciclon felt a little tall and tippy at times. I'd say the Ventana suspension is more playful and easier to manual and bunnyhop - and you feel the terrain under you when climbing chunky/techy terrain so there's a positive contact feel which is good. The numb feeling of the DW took me some time to adjust to on techy climbs. On the V you definitely feel the square edges more and it stiffens under braking. The DW erases the square edges better, doesn't brake jack or stiffen under braking. Something I loved about the Ventana was how solid the frame felt. The front triangle dampened the trail at speed very nicely and that provided added confidence on the trail. The Spot railed corners better and felt more precise. I was hitting turns tighter and faster right away.
I now have a 2011 Spot that's insane. I have a Fox 36 on it with a flush lower HS cup. The geometry is so dialled in. 66.5* HA, 13.7" BB and 44.8" WB on a large. The new Ventanas are very tempting though - I could honestly say I would be happy and content on the Spot or a 'custom' Ciclon.
View attachment 643749
View attachment 643750
edited: added photos and my ciclon was an 08 not an 09.
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