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Hi Guys,

What is the best AM wheels set for an ibis? I've 2 year old mavic sls on mine but looking for something a bit more robust but light!

interested to hear you thoughts!

D:thumbsup:
 

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Take your pick on hubs, but generally, the dt 5.1 rim on comp spokes is pretty much the class leader right now. I'm trying to find some with similar dimensions and strength as alternates, but they generally don't have that width. If you're really pushing it, a 10mm RWS or thru axle that's similar is pretty nice to bind things together and provide some security.
 

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Drapper said:
5.1 rims with comp spokes, nice!

and your hubs of preference jerk_chicken?
Hubs usually is a topic that becomes divisive and polarizing. Myself, I have a DT240s, a 340, and a bunch or ProII's. My riding is pretty technical and I do ratchet a lot. Many on the American side of mtb recommend high engagement points, while you go to Europe, no one cares. They go for reliable and strong. I've ridden higher engagement point hubs and they didn't really grab me. I won't say I hated them, because I don't, but it's only one factor of the whole, and not what the whole system should be exclusively judged by.

Starting with what I have:

The DT Star Ratchet System simply rocks. You have two opposing rings with ramps on their opposing faces (think the triangle blocks in kindergarten) and splines along the circumference. Freewheel and the ratchets simply slide over the ramps. Hit the pedals and their vertical faces engage against one another solidly, for 360 degrees of engagement, effectively locking the freehub and the driveshell together as close to one as possible. It's simply, few moving parts, and super strong. The sealing on these hubs are great, overall quality is great, support, and weight. The engagement points, if that matters, is 18. It's hard to qualify how much is locked there, but that's also translated as 18 points of engagement sharing the load, along with the splines on the outside that connect either ring to the hubshell or the driveshell.

Hope ProII: Really well priced high end hub. Excellent quality. 24 poe, many axle and hub options, easy to service. Four pawls engage at a time. Sealing is excellent as well. Stainless freehub option available if you're hard on Al carriers. I run mine with a 10mm axle and an RWS in the rear. Nice decently tall, thick flanges as well. Superlight and well priced. Loud, but for me a good loud. Love it.

*A note about DT and Hope hubs: If you plan on using Hope's two piece rotors, I have found these to be the most friendly, in terms of allowing the rotor to clear fork legs, for instance. King and i9 seem to put their mounts out further.

The standard: Chris King- some more seal drag than one might experience with the above, though the tradeoff is they are robust. They use something of a similar design as the DT Star Ratchets, but with 72 POE. Requires special tools for bearing removal, available from King, but it's not a huge deal. Axle options are restrictive and in some cases, requires a new hubshell if you want to go with different axles to to such things as proprietary bearings. They are expensive.

You hear a lot of I9. IMO, they are pretty worthless if you get the standard spoke versions, as they are King expensive, and heavier. The engagement mech is decent, with a really optimized version of the pawls, which you can choose 3 or 6 degree engagement. 3 degree has six pawls, but only three engage at a time, though each pawl has teeth on it to grab better. The six degree model has all the pawls "in phase", not three offset to halve the difference between the engagement points, so the six pawls engage at once. That's pretty stong.

I9 proprietary spoke- your call on getting those Al spokes on 5.1's

There are many many others. Hell, people are even talking XTR hubs in this league now.
 

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I looked at the DT5.1D's, but in the end I went with Stans Flow. A bit lighter, same width and a little cheaper!
 

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I had zero issues with Swiss DT 5.1d, DT Comp DB spokes, alloy nipples, Hadley rear, and Hope front hub.

If I was still interested in 26 inch wheels I'd go with Stan's Flow rims now over the 5.1d for tubeless conversion with better clincher bead fit (they can use tubes too).

I recommend a Hope front hub due to the versatility to adapt 5mm quick-release, 20mm or 15mm through axles to fit various forks, the bearings are cheep but can be replaced with quality when the time comes in a couple years of regular use. But I don't recommend the Hope rear hub except for primarily downhill use. The Hope rear hubs are light and durable but VERY LOUD, relatively high in friction, and slower engaging than indicated by 24 teeth, effectively like 16 point engagement due to the saw shaped tooth and pawl design.

For the best AM wheels, 650b options stand out in performance on the roughest terrain. The AM 650b tires are a tight fit in the Mojo. A 26" wheel in the rear gives better clearance for muddy conditions or slacks the frame angles 1/2 degree for more downhill oriented AM conditions.
 

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Derby said:
I had zero issues with Swiss DT 5.1d, DT Comp DB spokes, alloy nipples, Hadley rear, and Hope front hub.

If I was still interested in 26 inch wheels I'd go with Stan's Flow rims now over the 5.1d for tubeless conversion with better clincher bead fit (they can use tubes too).

I recommend a Hope front hub due to the versatility to adapt 5mm quick-release, 20mm or 15mm through axles to fit various forks, the bearings are cheep but can be replaced with quality when the time comes in a couple years of regular use. But I don't recommend the Hope rear hub except for primarily downhill use. The Hope rear hubs are light and durable but VERY LOUD, relatively high in friction, and slower engaging than indicated by 24 teeth, effectively like 16 point engagement due to the saw shaped tooth and pawl design.

For the best AM wheels, 650b options stand out in performance on the roughest terrain. The AM 650b tires are a tight fit in the Mojo. A 26" wheel in the rear gives better clearance for muddy conditions or slacks the frame angles 1/2 degree for more downhill oriented AM conditions.
Sorry Derby, you've put your opinion forth before about the ProII and have been called on it by various. If your proII was dragging, then send it to Hope to get checked and fixed. I can gladly post pictures of how free mine does against the 240s, as can others. You don't have any footing in this argument as was the case before.

"Slower engaging than indicated by 24 teeth"

How is that possible? You're so full of it sometimes because clearly this one defies the laws of physics. Is there a different dimension where the pawls go that adds more rotation to the theoretical the 24 would give? I'm asking because that's effectively what your statement means. On top of that, you're quantifying what it feels like to a number? Come on.

Saw shaped tooth and pawl design?

Guess what? most everyone has a saw-toothed design. Get this, even DT's Star Ratchets, King's Ring Drive, I9's engagement rings, and nearly everything out there use "saw tooth profiled" engagement elements, while with the Hope's pawl and saw shaped tooth engagement ring design, one is never more than 15 degrees (typically less because in terms of probability, you're between the end of the ramp and the wall where the pawl locks in. I don't know how you can think this adds a virtually greater engagement than what can only exist in reality, especially since the pawls are actually always in the "Out" position, following the countours of the engagement ring, in contrast to such ones as the WTB LDL, where the pawls are cam activated and the number of teeth on the engagement ring actually doesn't translate because of the engagement cam mechanism that actually pushes the pawls out. Had you made your comment about the LDL, I would have been with you, since in that design, pedaling engages a wire in a hole in a cam and forces the pawls out to engage in the ring.

In adjacent threads and posts, derby hailed the Hope bulb, with 36 points, and the Hadley, also with 36 points, and both are "Saw tooth and pawl" designs.

If anything, the Ring type engagements can have the possibility of adding more degrees between engagement, if you're say, on the peaks of opposing "saw teeth", effectively doubling the number of degrees between engagement, but typically, you're not there and somewhere in between, and those designs have advantages I've outlined above.

What is most bizarre in your posts is that you think you can lay such things down, then think you won't have someone that knows what they're talking about call you on it. This has nothing to do with your perceived rivalrty regarding Ibis, which you assumed it was when dozens of people on the site started taking your information to task and ridiculing you over it. It became a simple issue of you spreading fake information.

For example, I found the post in the past where derby got caught outright LYING about the ProII he claimed he had and knew the technical details of, even claiming they had no pawls, only springs? A nearly impossible feat when in my sig there's a link to pictures of the internals. Derby was called out by several to prove he even owns said hub, to no avail:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=366572

And that thread in thread included yet another link to yet another past thread where he lied about these hubs, saying they're not designed for yearly maintenance, a big fib, considering my teardown illustrates otherwise. Hell, my axle conversion only added about 5-10 minutes to the teardown time. Again, derby was called out by several on this fib:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=365772&highlight=derby+hope+pro

Also in searching, using the terms "derby" "Hope" "Pro", one can see other threads, fairly consistent of other words of the pro, going back to 2007, now out of nowhere, the black hole theory that adds degrees where they physically can not exist. I had accidentally lost yet another link, but after the one above, how much more needs to be said? How much lying can you do without correcting yourself? How many times can you be corrected on the same topic, now going into its second year?
 

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I've had Hope ProII, and 5.1 rims for over 2 years now. The hubs have been easy to service, and reliable. I did manage to put a big ding in the 5.1 rim, but was able to straighten it out. A similar hit on my 819 rim did not result in a dinged rim. Both times a hole was torn in the tire that Stans had no chance of closing. Both were running the same tire too.

I personally do not like the 5.1 tubeless system. It is a PITA to install, and getting tires on and off usually requires tire levers. My next set of wheels should be here any day. I got I9s with Stans Flow rims. Looking forward to seeing how they compare to the Hope/5.1 combo.

As for ProII drag, my ProII spins for ever. I'm often amazed at how long they will spin when the bike is in a stand. Only drag I get is with the brake pads rubbing.
 

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Jerk_Chicken said:
You're so full of it sometimes because clearly this one defies the laws of physics......
*Sigh*.... I really enjoyed your post above detailing the various features of hubs and drive systems..... spot on. But it seems that the pleasant exchange of valuable information can continue only so long.
Play nice children, play nice.
 

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Sorry subliminal, but when derby lies, he lies. You only support it. Don't tell people bringing actual fact to a discussion to play nice when within your own ranks is the initiator of the direction the topic took.

This is not the first time, and again, search those words I've posted before. Even when I wasn't around, derby's lies were called out by others, on various topics, with several threads about these hubs.

If you cared to read on further, more explanations were given into the operations of said hubs.
 

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Tough one. To start on a side topic, I don't find the 819 and the 5.1 to be in the same class. I have only those two types of rims in our collection. Of course, the 5.1 is wider, while the 819 really seems closer in class to the 4.1. The problem with the 819 is that one would automatically assume that with its weight, it would be robust like a 5.1, but the problem with that is 50+ grams goes to the nipple cups, which are not structural weight, so now you're left with a mid-400gm rim, which puts it into more of an XC-trail area. Then comes its width, though you may or may not ever notice. It's a good rim, but there's a bit of a whole in the line where direct competition to the 5.1 dimensionally and weight-wise exists.

Will 40grams at the rim kill you for a durable rim? I think that's what you must ask yourself and just look at the profiling and what type of tires you use and what type of "rollover" you'd want.
 

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Jerk_Chicken said:
Sorry subliminal, but when derby lies, he lies. You only support it. Don't tell people bringing actual fact to a discussion to play nice when within your own ranks is the initiator of the direction the topic took.

This is not the first time, and again, search those words I've posted before. Even when I wasn't around, derby's lies were called out by others, on various topics, with several threads about these hubs.

If you cared to read on further, more explanations were given into the operations of said hubs.
I did care to read further, and as I mentioned I thought your description of the hubs was quite informative and accurate.

I'm just saying play nice. I have no more affection for derby than I have for you (neutral in both cases). I'm just making note that you seem to be on a sort of witchhunt for derby. I find it entertaining but not particularly pertinent to the discussion. But whatever. It's interesting when parties disagree on a subject and a debate ensues. You tend to sound a little vindictive though and this detracts from your otherwise thoughtful posts.
Of course.... Maybe you're just naturally an ass. Many of my favorite people are natural born asses. Which is fine. Present your information in whatever way you want. It doesn't seem to detract from the value of the data contained in your posts but it does make it difficult to engage you in discussion.
For example: I have no personal affiliation or loyalty to derby and actually gave respect to your post. And yet you direct your attitude at me.
See... Here I would be interested in your opinion in rebuilding my chris king hubs into a stiffer wheelset (spoke and rim choices) which I think would be pertinent to the thread and helpful to me. But in doing so I have to sort through your attitude, so I'm less inclined to spend time on what you have to say. So if you have something of value to add on that i'd be interested in your opinion. If not, we can skip the attitude and save time.
 

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Well I am at the stage where I also need to get a new wheelset, My XT wheelset has not lasted and I had to go back to a custom wheel I had built in 2003 (and still going strong -XTR on 717 rims) where as my new XT wheelset died after a few months. (Shitmano can only help me in July2009 with a new freehub body)

Currently I am going for a Hope Pro 2 Hub with either a 5.1 or a XM819 rim , I like the idea of not having to fuss with stans or conversion kits to go tubeless, but the 5.1's have been proven in alot of the riding conditions here...

So in the same boat as you, I just need to decided on the rim.
 

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Dude: Your not a Jerk

Jerk_Chicken said:
Sorry subliminal, but when derby lies, he lies. You only support it. Don't tell people bringing actual fact to a discussion to play nice when within your own ranks is the initiator of the direction the topic took.
You're an assss.:ciappa: I ride with Derby frequently and those Hope hubs were POS.
They leaked oil, they were loud:yikes: and they were finicky.

They are not as good as the Hadleys, but they may be as good or better than my Crossmax hubs with their weak freehub body.

Just for reference Jerk, Derby is about the nicest guy on the planet and you are a harsh lame misanthrope (sp?:eek:ut: ). You can disagree with Derby on opinion, but all this crap about lies, lies, lies is bullsh.t:bluefrown: .

Try to be nicer for the new year, you camel ball sucker! :yawn:
 

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subliminalshiver said:
I did care to read further, and as I mentioned I thought your description of the hubs was quite informative and accurate.

I'm just saying play nice. I have no more affection for derby than I have for you (neutral in both cases). I'm just making note that you seem to be on a sort of witchhunt for derby. I find it entertaining but not particularly pertinent to the discussion. But whatever. It's interesting when parties disagree on a subject and a debate ensues. You tend to sound a little vindictive though and this detracts from your otherwise thoughtful posts.
Of course.... Maybe you're just naturally an ass. Many of my favorite people are natural born asses. Which is fine. Present your information in whatever way you want. It doesn't seem to detract from the value of the data contained in your posts but it does make it difficult to engage you in discussion.
For example: I have no personal affiliation or loyalty to derby and actually gave respect to your post. And yet you direct your attitude at me.
See... Here I would be interested in your opinion in rebuilding my chris king hubs into a stiffer wheelset (spoke and rim choices) which I think would be pertinent to the thread and helpful to me. But in doing so I have to sort through your attitude, so I'm less inclined to spend time on what you have to say. So if you have something of value to add on that i'd be interested in your opinion. If not, we can skip the attitude and save time.
Your response was directed towards me. Again, if you want none of this here, then PM derby and ask him to not post when he's going to fake experience. You're not sorting through an attitude. You're sorting through clearing the information that this particular forum doesn't care to hear. Even in the past threads, after half a dozen different people have proven derby wrong, even pictorially, there's actually an Ibis owner that comes out, uses foul language and tells everyone where to go. It's sad if you guys prefer faked information over real, experienced ones. Are you guys afraid to make derby mad, so you don't say anything to him?

Again, even when I'm not in the threads, there are other people, sometimes site staff proving him wrong. So then you must accuse others of a witch hunt. I know for a fact there are many other threads where derby fibs as well, and I don't go for those. If you notice, without practicing revisionist history, I actually posted in this thread first, then derby countered with false information that is now in its second year of evolution.

Now as far as Kings go, relace them and use them. They are tops, unless you want less drag. Just service the freehub bearings (with the wd40, not the removal), and relace them. I'm still not going to recommend those Halo Supadrive/Superstar Superleggera hubs until I have a set to test for myself. Those are the 120pt, two pawl with 15tooth per pawl hubs. The pawls wedge between the ramp and the ring when the teeth catch. It's a simple design in itself and I'm hoping it actually works. They are supercheap as well. I have blowups of the internals, but I want to actually brutalize one.
 
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