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Do you know what really pisses me off? I designed that hub. With the Joytech (novatech) engineers.

And when they delivered my sample there was an unsealed cartridge bearing on the outside of the cassette body.

So one night, after a bit of beer, when we were pushed for time, I designed a really bad looking black slightly curved "washer" that butts up against the cartridge bearing and stops the spray and goop getting in there.

And they go and sell the EXACT SAME HUB with the horrible black curved jetwash washer to (so far, that I know of) Woodman and now Nashbar.

We paid over $8000 in tooling charges to make that hub. Which is why,the price of the Planet X SS Disc hub is a little more than other peoples, as we're trying to recoup a little of those costs.

It's a big big shame and I can quite understand people buying the cheaper version - well, not version - it's not a version - it's THE SAME HUB!!!

Funnily enough, we had a shipment in today, with 50 hubs in there, which we trickle out at a good price, in complete wheelsets.

Anyhow... :-((((
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Do you know what really pisses me off? I designed that hub. With the Joytech (novatech) engineers.
...
And they go and sell the EXACT SAME HUB with the horrible black curved jetwash washer to (so far, that I know of) Woodman and now Nashbar.
Are there ways of preventing this from happening? If you were to go through the process again, are there things you could do to avoid getting shafted?

It's a big big shame and I can quite understand people buying the cheaper version - well, not version - it's not a version - it's THE SAME HUB!!!
With a price difference of >$100 ($70 vs $180)for the "same hub", a consumer's decision to go with the cheaper alternative can be pretty much expected...

Sounds like a bummer of a situation for you.

baker
 

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I imagine that Nashbar are buying for the same factory price we are, though they don't have the $8000 tooling charge hanging over their heads.

However Nashbar can then add their own margin to that price and sell for that price.

As we have a more conventional margins - for a distributor, and a retailer, our price is always going to be more.

I bet Nashbar don't send people free pawls and springs for their SS freehubs, in exchange for a chocolate bar though :)
 

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Do you know what really pisses me off? I designed that hub. With the Joytech (novatech) engineers.

And when they delivered my sample there was an unsealed cartridge bearing on the outside of the cassette body.

So one night, after a bit of beer, when we were pushed for time, I designed a really bad looking black slightly curved "washer" that butts up against the cartridge bearing and stops the spray and goop getting in there.

And they go and sell the EXACT SAME HUB with the horrible black curved jetwash washer to (so far, that I know of) Woodman and now Nashbar.

We paid over $8000 in tooling charges to make that hub. Which is why,the price of the Planet X SS Disc hub is a little more than other peoples, as we're trying to recoup a little of those costs.

It's a big big shame and I can quite understand people buying the cheaper version - well, not version - it's not a version - it's THE SAME HUB!!!

Funnily enough, we had a shipment in today, with 50 hubs in there, which we trickle out at a good price, in complete wheelsets.

Anyhow... :-((((
Sorry, Brant. I knew that and it had slipped my mind. I have heard of this happening with other companies working with Asian factories, too. The big fish have the money to defend their investment but it is tough on the smaller guys, like you, that have used most of their assets just to get the parts made in the first place.

It is also the reason Chris King and some other high end companies run their own manufacturing plants (but then most of them also stared as machine shops).

May the Mungo-shiiggy Bars never be sold as anything other than On-One products!
 

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What the hell

I imagine that Nashbar are buying for the same factory price we are, though they don't have the $8000 tooling charge hanging over their heads.

Yeah, if I paid 8 grand for tooling, I'd be pissed if someone used those tools without at least asking me...or cutting me a break, or giving me a few bucks per hub. I'm sure there's bits to the story we don't know, but that just doesn't seem fair.

In a similar situtation, Grant P. at Rivendell designs loads of parts and has Nitto, Carradice, and other companies make them, 'specially for him. In some cases, Rivendell has paid big bucks for tooling on lugs and other forged and cast parts. Thankfully, I have not seen those parts pop up on Nashbar or anywhere else... and I hope I don't.

-Ginz
 

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Also, if you are developing a part you should seek patent protection before you show any protoypes or offer any for sale, this way you can protect your initial investment and out-license the patent to recoup your expenses.
 

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There are plenty of designs that aren't novel enough to support a patent application (although have you seen some of the things USPTO will grant patent protection for?) but it'd still be nice not to be ripped off for the tooling costs. There's also the expense and hassle of applying for patents in all the applicable markets. All in all the patent system does little to protect people like Brant and plenty to protect larger companies who can afford to throw their legal weight around.
 

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True enough, many parts may not be considered novel enough, but you can always file a design patent application which covers the way the article looks if the functionality is not novel enough.

True, the patent process can be expensive but so can losing 8000.00 in tooling costs.

For most products, you don't need to file around the world, usually the US market and some European countries, or just US as this would prevent the offending item to be sold or shipped to the US.

There is a very informative book titled "Patent it yourself" from nolo press that teaches the patent process and gives step by step instructions for drafting your own application.

Just a thought,
Kelly
 

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True, the patent process can be expensive but so can losing 8000.00 in tooling costs.

Brant would have to patent every design though - even all those that haven't been / won't be ripped off. It's like an insurance premium - you can't just pay it on the house that burns down.
 

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Almost any shop can get On-One

Lordy I've no idea. Our distributors are J&B. I've no idea who individual dealers are, though I do know that http://www.kenwoodcyclery.com/ do on-one...
Ask your local shop. Just like Quality Bicycle Products, almost any shop can order directly from J&B Importers. I know my shop said they could get me the Il Pompino frame and Fork for about $425-$450 and it comes in the cool new silver color that only seems to be availible in the US. There is a nice mark up on these frames so I am sure any shop would be happy to get one for you.
 

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patpend2000 said:
... There is a very informative book titled "Patent it yourself" from nolo press that teaches the patent process and gives step by step instructions for drafting your own application.

Just a thought,
Kelly
But you still need the resources to defend a patent. If a big company finds something they want and feel the patent holder can not fight them they will just ignore it.
 

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Engagement...

KaiMana said:
Brant or anyone know what the engagement is like?

I do some trials type urban on my SS and am looking for something with good engagement without the cost of King.
Engagement is very quick. I have a Novatech hub (was one of the first and posted it online and that's when Brant found out about what Joytech had done to him) that is now 3 years old. It is bombproof and ratchets very quickly. I have just gone to the True Precision Stealth hub with instant engagement and while there is a difference between the two hubs, it wasn't as much as I expected, the On-One design is that good.

I replaced the 4 bearings in the Novatech hub last year, they had 3000+ miles on them, most of it wet riding with cleaning of the bike consisting of spraying everything with the garden hose (meaning, it wasn't babied). The front hub bearings last considerably less, need to be replaced about every 6 months.

bike ON

bob
 

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Did you...

...sign an exclusive agreement with the vendor, or assume they wouldn't sell it elsewhere? No offense, but it seems like you just didn't think about this issue arising when you paid for the tooling. It still sucks. Like you and everyone agree though, my three kids would prevent me from helping you pay for the tooling if I have a choice.
 
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