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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Remember this is for the 05 Turner 5 Spot I own.
After some good mileage on my local trails, I feel 100% confident in the following results.
To start with, the change over. Switching from my 05 HL rear end to the TNT 06 rear end was easy, done in minutes. Worthy notes in changeover are the rear caliper mounted up in the exact position as the 05, no rotor rub, no more or less shims needed, exactly spot on. I have run it for 1 week now, today I switched back and forth from the HL to the TNT. In doing so, the bushings felt like they had the same smoothness as mine. Cycle the rear ends and both felt basically the same. Excellent.
The riding terrain is worth speaking of.
Any of you having ridden Tahoe a lot, will know what kind of variety we have all around the area. I spend lots of time on granite slabs, on rock strewn trails with boulders, shale rock, baby heads, ledges, roots, berms, ruts, steep technical, twisty, straight fast, and whatever else I can find. Many sections I re-did over and over trying to get as much feedback in my head as possible, climbing and decending both. I kept every aspect of the bike exactly the same, other than the rear ends.
Up til today, the difference in HL to TNT I could not feel. At least not the performance difference others have so vividly claimed it would be. Remember, numbers dont lie...!!!!

In the case of HL vs. TNT the rider is what it all comes down to, and by far more important than numbers.

Speaking of today, the trail was perfect. Tight, twisty, slow and fast sections mixed with sweeper curves and sharp sudden switchbacks, braking bumps, etc.good braking test. Climbing it is steep and granny ring opportunity for sure, lots of good sized rocks everywhere, a few water bars and dips, but everything is bedded in the dirt, solid ground. This is a 1.5 - 2 mile one way distance section of a ride I used for the test, and have ridden a lot before. I would end up climbing up, turn around and bomb down.
I decided to go a step farther in trying to find some differences in these rear ends. I ran an old school shock, with no platform damping. One of my old Vanilla RC coil shocks, a good 5 years old but in excellent shape.

Run #1 I started with the same set up as the last 5 rides, TNT rear end and the DHX-A. Then run #2 I switched from the DHX-A to the Vanilla. Man does this sucker bounce. At first, I could tell no difference in braking or climbing, except a lot of bounce climbing that shock, and buttery smooth when on straights. I thought I was onto something in running this shock though.
Then run #3, I decided to switch to the HL rear end keeping the Vanilla on. As I climbed up the downhill backwards, I thought for sure I had felt something clearly different this time, going up, over, down into a log water bar followed by a good sized sharp rock, same type features except one is round one is sharp. Many places on the trail like this. Felt like I went through it easier/smoother.....??? I redid that spot again. So I went back down and put the TNT rear end back on immediately, still keeping the Vanilla on.
Run #4 I retraced my tracks exactly. I was kinda bummed though this time, I could not feel the difference I had felt just 15 minutes before. ???. Redid the section again to be sure. felt the same. Now getting baffled.
(Later on, all I could come up with was i was now warmed up and climbed all of run #3 a little easier now being warmed up and no longer 38 degrees...!!!!)
Went down and changed yet again to the HL rear end, run #5..... Basically run #3 all over again. Back up to the same spot. Nope, no difference this time. Redid the same spot twice, still no difference. Back down for the last time, switched back to the TNT rear end and DHX-A this time.
Run #6, faster than run #5 felt. This time I could feel a shock difference. The DHX-A would not sag into its travel as far as the vanilla, and takes a little more force to get moving. With the vanilla I really thought I would feel something different since it was much easier to go deep into the travel where most of the difference is said to be. Run #6 all I could feel different was the more stable chassis with the DHX-A. Finally it was back down for some rest and food. Then it was time to do the entire ride as a loop=about 13 miles. Now riding entirely different terrain, the last 4.5 miles is decending, and into the same lower area as I spent the entire morning riding. Still no detectable change of any kind in braking or climbing, except for that run#3. I believe it was just being warmed up. Run #5 proved that.

After all of this, I can tell you something I can feel is different.
The lower stay is beefier. If you get on rutted or off camber ground you might feel more lateral stiffness, you might not. I could feel it a few times. Not all the time. It is stiffer, but not a night and day difference at all. The HL is plenty stiff. The TNT is laterally stiffer, and some riders might feel it, some might not, the difference is minimal.

Thats really it, I thought I had felt it on run #3, once you block out the vanilla bounce, and focus on whats happening late in the stroke then the rider can feel whats going on. Sooooo, on paper its supposed to be there, but to the rider it seems to be damn hard if not impossible to feel. Others having posted on TNT experiences have basically reported similar.
I personally prefer to run the TNT rear end. It looks stiffer and cool, It feels stiffer at times, It wont make you go faster, it does not change the shifting, the ride experience is exactly the same-all smiles and lots of fun. Now if DT will put a 12mm axle on it and get King to make a hub for it.....yummy!
P.S.....time to put all this HL vs. TNT to bed. Unless someone can show me a better way to FEEL the difference while riding, I am convinced TNT is perfectly fine, at least as good if not better than the HL was.
 

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Great review. Stop riding so darn fast -- you're blurring the pictures! :D

I got a TNT for comparison today. Was psyched until I opened the box. The thing is silver! My HL rear end is black. How am I supposed to fairly compare these two different colors?! It will be impossible to be objective. Everyone knows that silver is faster, but black looks cooler!

Seriously, I'll post some comments after the Turkey Day food-fest. I may gain enough weight that the extra stiffness you thought you noticed in certain situations will really matter! :D
 

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Nice one David. Swapping rear triangles would be easier with a Shimano rear der and X type cranks. I have to pull a crank arm and swap der housing each time. Not a big deal (probably a 20 minute swap), but not instant. We just got some snow which is cramping my testing style, but it'll happen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
snow

tscheezy said:
Nice one David. Swapping rear triangles would be easier with a Shimano rear der and X type cranks. I have to pull a crank arm and swap der housing each time. Not a big deal (probably a 20 minute swap), but not instant. We just got some snow which is cramping my testing style, but it'll happen.
Send that white stuff down here. Last year at Holloween we were skiing/boarding very deep powder. I guess it makes up for the 9 month winter we had last season. But now i am itching to get on the ski bike and snowboard both, so ahhhh...........send us your snow cuz we dont have any.
 

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Kewl D! I saw the same thing regarding the caliper alignment. I was impressed I needed no adjustments either. Sounds like you really ran that sucker throught the ringer.

I'll gladly send you any snow we get.
BTW, When are you going to compare them them in ski-bike mode?:D
 

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Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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thanx again to ya all for the time and effort bein put forth here. what amazes me is how good the tooling must be for turner and sapa to get things so close over years of production runs that the calipers line up perfectly. thats just shy of totally impossible! impressive dont ya think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
well.....

Bikezilla said:
Kewl D! I saw the same thing regarding the caliper alignment. I was impressed I needed no adjustments either. Sounds like you really ran that sucker throught the ringer.

I'll gladly send you any snow we get.
BTW, When are you going to compare them them in ski-bike mode?:D
As soon as Cactus gets his bike going and comes to Tahoe, now that would be some fun.........
I wonder which will carve a deeper trench?
 

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Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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have bike box, will travel. given the funds and all. ill take that as a invite. i miss tahoe. those pics made me think of my high school weekends spent fallin trees and hangin out in my pals families cabin and post school midweek days spent skiing at sierra ski ranch, now re-named. its easy to identify the ground and trees there. id love to return with my skis and a snow bike. ill let ya know if i can pull it off this season pal. im locked in till after krismiss but after that???? who knows? it could happen!
 

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Great review DGC. I especially like the idea of installing a non platform shock for this test. It brings in a variable that was not looked at before and I'm a bit shocked that even with a non platform shock the HL did not provide any benefit. I would have thought that at least with that shock, the HL would have given you a bit less bob. So be it for HL.

It's funny but in 2004 when they introduce my Devinci Banzai, the US version was a "TNT" like version and the Canadian version a HL. I felt so lucky to be Canadian at that time since I could get the holy grail horst link version. Looks like I was weting my pants for nothing! hahaha Wonder if Devinci would be willing to send me a non-HL rear to test like DT is doing with you guys, na!!!

Do you plan on trying out the Marzo Rocco soon DGC? I would really like to know if it bobs and bounces as much as your old Vanilla on the 5spot...

Cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
nope

BanzaiRider said:
Great review DGC. I especially like the idea of installing a non platform shock for this test. It brings in a variable that was not looked at before and I'm a bit shocked that even with a non platform shock the HL did not provide any benefit. I would have thought that at least with that shock, the HL would have given you a bit less bob. So be it for HL.

It's funny but in 2004 when they introduce my Devinci Banzai, the US version was a "TNT" like version and the Canadian version a HL. I felt so lucky to be Canadian at that time since I could get the holy grail horst link version. Looks like I was weting my pants for nothing! hahaha Wonder if Devinci would be willing to send me a non-HL rear to test like DT is doing with you guys, na!!!

Do you plan on trying out the Marzo Rocco soon DGC? I would really like to know if it bobs and bounces as much as your old Vanilla on the 5spot...

Cheers.
No plans on trying the Marzo out. I sure did think I had the Vanilla idea nailed before I rode it too. Yes (Blue Shorts) it was a lot of fun doing this. One more good ride tomorrow on turkey day before we get colder and maybe finally some winter........gotta do Toads wild ride...!!!!!! Hmmmmm.....more fun to be had.
 

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DGC said:
Send that white stuff down here. Last year at Holloween we were skiing/boarding very deep powder. I guess it makes up for the 9 month winter we had last season. But now i am itching to get on the ski bike and snowboard both, so ahhhh...........send us your snow cuz we dont have any.
Heretic.

You just requested an end to the latest biking season I've had in the 6 years I've been here. If I could ban you I would.

Only temporarily though. I might need some more setup questions on my snowbike answered. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
snow dirt

kidwoo said:
Heretic.

You just requested an end to the latest biking season I've had in the 6 years I've been here. If I could ban you I would.

Only temporarily though. I might need some more setup questions on my snowbike answered. ;)
I really dont want snow soon, but the snow keeps me employed in the winter, that way I can afford this snow biking silliness. The dirt is the best its been in the fall of the 13 years I've lived here.
 

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Amphibious Technologies
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BanzaiRider said:
I'm a bit shocked that even with a non platform shock the HL did not provide any benefit. I would have thought that at least with that shock, the HL would have given you a bit less bob.
We're not just talking about a HL bike here but, apparently an ICT one too. DGC's observations, along with others on this board who have tested thet TNT, shows that ICT does not really provide the benefit it is marketed to have. I reckon, the make, model and settings of the rear shock will make more of a difference in riding than the linkage in this case. TNT is definitely a non-issue in my book now that we've had these reviews.
 

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No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DGC said:
Send that white stuff down here. Last year at Holloween we were skiing/boarding very deep powder. I guess it makes up for the 9 month winter we had last season. But now i am itching to get on the ski bike and snowboard both, so ahhhh...........send us your snow cuz we dont have any.
You had WAY more snow than we did last winter so now its our turn! Just got another 6" dropped on us today to go with the 6" we gots over the weekend. Winter is FINALLY here!!! Here's a look in front of the office at about noon today Alaskan time, that's 4 hrs behind Eastern FYI....

p.s. The foot tracks are the "sidewalk."
 

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carpe mañana
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I'm becoming more and more convinced at the lack of difference between the two. One question that remains, what was Horst Leitner thinking when he released the design, if it offers no tangible difference to the rider?

_MK
 

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I think there were limitations in design and it was basically an easy way out to guarantee neutrality. it took more work to make a non horst feel as good. I think there are lots of intangibles in there, and the numbers may show "paper superiority", while it doesn't exist in real life.

That said, bursting the FSR marketing bubble credit goes to DT. Good show. I'll ride a TNT bike any day, so long as it feels like a Turner.
 
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